I want you to do that Mike. So when I send people to all the quotes of your Pastor, they will be able to get the FULL picture of the nasty doctrines that not only he is preaching, but who he got them from.

Of course they wouldn't put it on their beliefs page. They want you hooked in by itching your ears, while they are really putting it people's mouths. This is how cults work.

Read the comment by Lunnty about Word Faith churches. You're both Omegas and I believe you will have a nice on the shield discussion.

One funny thing about this false gospel being preached is that it speaks against what the church is supposed to promote. I do not have to guess, because I know an empirical study would show this prosperity gospel to be false. When you look at how PROSPERITY was obtained, we do not see it being done by giving. Look at the example of the men with the talents. The two that made a 200 fold increase did not go to the synagogue. The one that chose not to invest his money had it taken from him. You did not see his master say to him that you could have given it to the synagogue do you?

What do we see the early church doing? Not sewing to reap, but to give and help each other. If the prosperity gospel is really true, then the bum on the street who gives his last dollar as opposed to a millionaire who gives a $100,000 "seed" should be the one who is rich. If you give all you have, then you should get all you want. Jesus did not look at the amount of the gift for multiplication sake. He looked at the % of the gift according to how much you have as to its importance and significance. The prosperity being preached by Word Faith preachers is a LIE.

Rev. Hatchett,
First of all I want to say thanks for not erasing my post. I appreciate that. Now, the bible is the sure prophecy. Everything that Rev just said in the previous post goes against scripture.

This is why I can say that the Rev is mis-quoting these Word of faith preachers because if he really listened to them, he wouldn't ignore all the scriptures in the bible that talk about prosperity and the purpose of it. So what I am about to do people is the same thing that the Apostle Paul did with the Jews who were willing to search the scriptures to see if Christ and the gospel be true.

Now Rev. Hatchett said -->
"When you look at how PROSPERITY was obtained, we do not see it being done by giving."

---> Now according to the Rev, prosperity is NOT obtained by giving. Now, let's see if the bible agrees with that statement.

One thing about religious Christians is that they only know a few scriptures in the bible. They ignore scriptures like the ones I am about to share with you because it confuses them because their belief is not based off the bible but what other religious Christians told them and their belief is based off their own circumstances which they don't realize is a result of being ignorant of the bible and their unbelief.

Luke 6:37-38
(37)Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

(3 GIVE, and it SHALL BE GIVEN UNTO YOU; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

According to this scripture, you have to give in order for it to be given to you. Let's look at another scripture.

Phil 4:10-19 (Did the Philippi church give money to a preacher?) Lets see.....

(10) I rejoice greatly in the Lord that at last you have renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you have been concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do everything through him who gives me strength.
14Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles.

(15) Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only;



(16) for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need.




(17) Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.

< Oh my God, so Paul are you saying that because I GAVE to you, God is going to give back to me? >


(1 I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. (19) And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.

So because these people gave gifts to Paul, God is now going to meet their needs according to the riches and glory IN Christ Jesus. Is this not in the scriptures? Am I a heretic because I expect that when I support the men of God as they go around the world preaching the gospel that God is going to meet my needs according to His riches and glory?

Oh I know Rev, Creflo Dollar and TD Jakes are not men of God but heretics. Well that's your opinion. You have no scriptural basis. The stuff that you say they preach is a bold face lie. I hear these men preach and if they preached what you say they preach, I'll be preaching the same things now. It was Creflo Dollar who taught me that Jesus was born righteous. It was John Hagee that said he doesn't care who you are, YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. So for you to say they are teaching something else is a lie and your opinion.

But I got one more scripture for you Rev. Refute this,

Mark 10:23-30
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24And the disciples were astonished at his words.



But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!



25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.



(29)And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

(30) But he shall RECEIVE AN HUNDREFOLD IN THIS TIME (WHILE HE IS STILL ON EARTH), houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Oh look, we'll receive the 100 fold with persecution. So this explains why Creflo, and Kenneth Copeland, and John Hagee are persecuted by religious Christians. Because before they were famous, they forsook all. They left their wives and children at home while they were in Africa, without running water, preaching the gospel. They gave up secular jobs for full time ministry. Creflo gave up a football career to preach in a old cafeteria. See the persecution doesn't come when you forsake. Rev. Hatchett had nothing to say about Creflo Dollar when he was so broke, the lens in his glasses would fall out the frame. Rev didn't have anything to say when Creflo was preaching in a ragedy cafeteria with rats running behind him. But when the 100 fold hit, and now his membership has grown from 8 people to 25,000 and an additional 8000 in New York, now comes the persecution.

It is a shame Rev. You are suppose to be the one getting persecuted. Not the one giving it out.

Unfortunately SEEDS and 100 folds and seed faith are applied to agriculture and future reapings. I see NO evidence in Mark that MONEY is being discussed. I will say it like this. YOU PUT YOUR SEED($) IN THE GROUND, AND IT IS GOING IN THESE PREACHERS POCKETS. Am I saying that we should not pay tithes and offerings? NO! But offering are not given for the purpose of becoming prosperous. It is literally defeating the Biblical work ethic. If I can sow $10,000 dollars with some prophet(who is supposed to be speaking DIRECTLY for God) will receive a 100 fold blessing, then I will get a million. I would never have to truly labor again, you know why? Because I would then sow $500,000 thousand at a 100 fold return for $50 million. This example here should be clear to anyone that seed faith is not $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ related.

I will come back with the TRUE meaning of prosperity as it is BIBLICALLY defined.

And see people, this is what I mean by the Pharisee spirit. Notice that the Rev did not address the scripture reference I gave in Phillipians 4:10-19 about the fact that Apostle used the example of seed time and harvest to talk about monetary gifts. Also notice that Rev. Hatchett also did not address the scripture in Luke 6 which says "give and it shall be given to you." The scripture says Men shall give into your bosom. What are they giving? Carrots and peas?

Notice the Rev did not address the fact that the scripture specifically said mothers, sisters, brothers, and LANDS. Notice that the Rev did not address the fact that you get back a 100 fold of what you forsake. So if I forsake LAND, then I should receive a 100 fold of lands. So likewise, if I forsake money, what should I recieve a 100 fold of? Money.


Now like a true Pharisee, he will say I gave a $100 and I didn't get $10,000 back, therefore the scripture is wrong. This, people, is when Paul said you must rightly divide the word. No, it is not as simple as you giving a 1000 dollars and receiving $100,000 back. This is when you have to go to the rest of the word. You have to go to the old testament and read the examples. To sum it up, you only get the 100 fold when you give what God tells you to give. Yeah you give tithes and offerings but when God speaks and says give your paycheck, and you obey, that's when you see the 100 fold. But you don't give to get a 100 fold, if that is your motivation, you are not hearing from God anyway. 1 Corinthians 13 is the motivation why we do what we do, and that is Love.

I don't give so I can get a Rolls Royce, I give because I love God and I give to support the preaching of the Gospel. But at the same time, I believe God's promises. And if Jesus promised me that what I forsook for the sake of spreading and financing the gospel, I will recieve the 100 fold. Then I believe what Jesus said and I expect it. But now, what will I do with the 100 fold once I get it. I'll still obey God, and keep giving to finance the gospel. But I give what God tells me to give and I will recieve what God tells me to receive. I will not let anyone limit my giving and receiving based off their unbelief.

"Yeah you give tithes and offerings but when God speaks and says give your paycheck, and you obey, that's when you see the 100 fold." LIE! When was money ever considered a SEED? Go to the Old Testament where? Why did you ignore some of my explanations and/or scriptures? Don't Worry! I will deal with Philippians 4:10-19. As for prosperity and the gospel (false) of prosperity that is being preached, the word for prosperity has nothing to do with SEEDS and HARVESTS. And you know good and well that LOVE IS NOT the motivation to give by these preachers. Love is just a byword said in passing while these guys preach. Anyone who wants to go and see what these preachers are saying will have your chance when the website goes private. You are going to be downright amazed at what you see. If you believe these preachers are being taken out of context, then order the tapes and here it for yourself. I have heard some of the charlatans at work. I am not afraid to help expose them. It's great to use scripture, but they must be used in context Good soldier.

http://www.truthseek.net/dollah.html
You can type in things such as the
false prosperity gospel
100 fold blessing false doctrine
Word Faith Preachers
Did Jesus Suffer In Hell?
Was Jesus Born Again?

You can then get to the bottom of alot of this mess.

Hey Rev,
Instead of telling them to go to a website, why don't you just tell them to go to the bible? If you want to see if prosperity is the bible, get a Strong's concordance. Look up every scripture in the bible on prosperity. From the old testament to the new testament. Then after reading EVERY scripture in the bible on prosperity, then decide for yourself if prosperity is the will of God for the lives of the saints.
The websites are designed to deceive you. Remember, God owns the earth. He created all the silver, gold, oil, and everything else on this planet. Now did God create these things for the people who follow satan or for the people who follow God? If preaching prosperity is wrong, why is it in the bible?

Genesis 2:10-12

(10)And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

(11) The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is GOLD;

(12) And the GOLD of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

---> Why did God mention their was gold in the land? Who did God create Gold for?

Deuteronomy 8:18
(1 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee POWER TO GET WEALTH, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

---> Why is God talking about wealth? Why does God give us the power to get wealth? Doesn't God know that Rev. Hatchett says we are not suppose to talk about this stuff.

Isaiah 1:18-20

(1 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(19) If ye be WILLING AND OBEDIENT, ye shall eat the good of the land:

--> So then if I sow obedience, then I'll reap the good of the land. Is there gold and silver in the land? Must be, we don't get it from out of space.

(20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

--> But hey, if I sow disobedience, then I'll reap being devoured by poverty, defeat, and sickness and all the curses mentioned in Deut 28.

Hey Rev, why does God want us to be obedient? Looks like He is trying to share what He owns with us.

Now the Rev says that seedtime and harvest refers to fruits and vegetables. Well let's see what Jesus refered to it as.

Mark 4:3-14 (What is Jesus talking about here?)

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

(14) The SOWER SOWETH THE WORD.

-----> Say What? You mean to tell me Jesus is using an analogy of seedtime and harvest to describe how the word works? So then can the same analogy be used to describe money? Let's see.

2 Corinthians 9:5-8

(5) Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty,

(Is this bounty material wealth like money or is it fruits and vegetables?)

whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

(6)But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him GIVE; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

----> Okay Rev, is he giving fruits and vegetable or is he giving money or other valuables? Because if he is giving fruits and vegetables, then that means we are not suppose to give money in church, we are suppose to put fruits and vegetables in the offering buckets. In the old testament, they tithed everything. Cows, vegetables, and money. So if seedtime and harvest only refers to fruits and vegetables then why did Jesus use it to refer to the Word?
----> Man, I hope Ga Power and Bellsouth accepts Zuchinni and Tomatoes as payment for the electric and phone bill.

( And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

---->>> Say what? You mean to tell me that if I give, God will make sure I always have sufficiency? And not just in the area of money, but in all things? My marriage, my family, my health, my relationships, and my money. ALL means ALL.

---->> So don't cop out by telling people to go to a website Rev.

Are you scared to tell them to go to the Word? The website won't give you the scriptures above. Tell them to go to the word so they can see the whole truth and not just the partial truth you want them to see.

I dare you to tell people to look up every scripture on prosperity with a Strong's concordance.

Psalm 112: 1-3 (Hey Rev, did Jesus die on the cross to make us righteous?)

(1) Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

2His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

(3) WEALTH AND RICHES shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

-----> Man, I don't understand. Why does God keep talking about wealth and riches? According to this scripture, the righteous are suppose to have riches and wealth in their house.

Proverbs 13:21-22

(21)Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.

(22) A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the WEALTH OF THE SINNER IS LAID UP FOR THE JUST.

----> Say what? You mean to tell me that sinners are not suppose to have wealth? God has laid their wealth up for the just? Well, are Christians just? Just is short for justified or declared righteous. Hasn't Jesus justified those who call upon His name?

---> So why then are Christians poor or they only have just enough to pay their bills but nobody elses? Maybe it is because of this:

Luke 6:38
(3 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men (are these the sinners mentioned in Proverbs?) give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Either way, if we don't have Psalms 112, it is not God's fault. It is ours. Maybe the so called Word of Faith teachers are trying to show us how to get what God said we should have. Is it heresy to want what God wants you to have?

Now to all, I have shared with you the scriptures. If you go to the website that the Rev sends you to, compare what they say on the website to these scriptures and then make your conclusion.

As far as all the other stuff about Jesus getting born again and spending three days in hell, email me at Mike_mike3@yahoo.com and we will do the same thing again. We'll go to the scriptures and then you can decide for yourself if Jesus spent 3 days in hell and get understanding of the difference between the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and having the Holy Ghost upon you.

Thanks and I speak III John 1:2 over each of you,

"brethern, I wish above ALL things that thou mayest prosper and be in health even as thy soul prospers."

Da Good Soldier,

Are you also a fan of Creflo Dollar?


And to everyone else, what's the problem with prosperity? or is someone saying that it's preached on too much? Maybe I need to reread the earlier posts.

Well here;s the thing "ME" the bible says Jesus came so that we may have life and have it more abundantly. Jesus also say that "I wish above all things that you prosper and be in good health JUST AS YOUR SOUL PROSPERS." When a person is preaching physical and financial prosperity more than they are preaching spiritual prosperity that can become a problem. The reason is (not everybody) but some people equate prosperity to salvation and some people if they are not prospering physically or financially they began to second guess their salvation. Much of this is the fault of some prosperity teachers. God wants us to focus on spiritual prosperity first and let Him take care of the rest. But when you focus on physical and financial prosperity more than you do your first priority which is to magnify Jesus then you began to make the first two a top priority. You remember the story about the man that was born blind? And the disciples began to ask Jesus if he or his family sinned? and Jesus answered and said neither. Thats an example of how us Christians can be sometimes. We think if a person is sick,or poor,or unhealthy that its because their relationship with God isnt right, but in actuality God allows people to have storms and then be delivered so that He can show someone what it means to be blessed or brought out by Him. Nothin ticks me off more than preachers who say "turn to your neighbor and say this is your season for a breakthrough" Thats an act of false prophesy in some cases because it may not be the season of breakthrough for the person you say it to. What usually happens is , if that person months or however long from then does not recieve that breakthrough that they were falsely promised, they began to question their relationship with the Father.

PT.2 so the answer is no, there's absolutely nothng wrong with prosperity. But only when its recieved in Gods timing. When we focus on prosperity more than we do spiritual growth we end up living by the scripture that says, "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul".

When a person is preaching physical and financial prosperity more than they are preaching spiritual prosperity that can become a problem.

I agree. And also agree with your post directly above. I just didn't understand why there was talk against the preaching of prosperity. When it comes to Creflo Dollar, and some others....I myself don't take a preacher to be real and of God when he's always preaching on money. There was a false prophet here in Chicago who was teaching people how to get money from other people (and that's not why I KNOW he's a false prophet)---it's a long story. He's moved on to tear down other churches and get this----he changes his name all the time! So this makes me also feel funny about these funny names like Dollar, oh and Creflo, (clefto)--no offense, and I know he doesn't change his name and that I don't have a scripture about this so don't take it to heart.

Dear Me and Allabout Business,

Thanks for responding to my post intelligently without judging specific Word of Faith teachers. Do not get me wrong, there are false teachers out there who talk about money for the single purpose of being rich. These teachers do not understand the purpose of prosperity neither do they understand the spiritual side of it but want money for the same reason the sinners do, so they can put their trust in it. According to 1st Timothy 6 (I believe), those who put their trust in money will fall into a trap like Enron.

If God were to sleep or if God slept, the one thing that would cause Him to get out of bed in the morning is the desire to be one with all humans. And we know that God can only do this through Jesus the Christ. So our job as Christians is to preach the gospel, not just locally, or even nationally, but to the entire world including Arabic countries where they kill Christians.

So that is the end objective, to save souls. So now, how are we going to do this? The traditional way is no longer working and in some cases it is actually turning people away. For instance, this website.

But Why? Because you have other competing religions. Although they are false. If we go to China with muslims, buddhist, and hindu evangelist. And we are all witnessing to an athiest Asian. What is the difference, in his eyes, between them (false religions) and Christianity?

If we as Christians are just as broke, sick, and defeated as the muslims, hindus, and Buddhist? Then how will the athiest know which one is the true God. We all TALK a good game, but when it is time to produce, if Christians have nothing more than what Jesus did 2000 years ago, we are no different than the false religions who also have miraculous stories that happen in the past.

So what is the difference between us and them in the eyes of the Athiest? Yeah, WE KNOW WE going to heaven but the atheist guy doesn't. So how can we prove to Him that our God is real and Muhammad, Dali Lama, and Hali Carishtner is a lie?

Even Jesus himself had to do signs and wonders to get the Jews to believe in Him and they already believed in God. Apostle Paul didn't just preach the gospel, He demonstrated through signs and wonders. So if we Christians today are broke, sick, and defeated. Then how can we prove that we are the children of a God who owns all the gold and silver, who Heals the sick, and who always causes us to triumph?

So the #1 reason for material means is so we can preach the gospel around the world.

Did you see Passion of the Christ? Do you know that Passion was the first Christian movie to be shown in theatres in Arabic countries? Do you know what kind of witness that was?

Did you also know that Mel Gibson couldn't find any sinners to finance that movie? Do you know how many rumage sales and fish fry's the saints would have to do to produce that kind of money; $35,000,000!

I thank my God in heaven that Mel didn't have to depend on fundraising from broke Christians to finance that movie. I thank God he was able to sow a $35,000,000 offering to not only make the movie but market and advertise the movie all around the world.

And this saints is the reason why we must prosper, so we don't have to be limited by sinners when it is time to preach the gospel. If Delta doesn't want to fly us to the small village of Ubatu in the middle of the jungle in Africa, cool. Our Big Daddy God owns all the wealth and He has given us the power to get it (Deut 8:18) so we can build a runway in the village and then buy our own airplane and fly ourselves there. We can build churches with our own money. And not no ragedy ann Church. I am talking about a church that represents our God who sits on streets of Gold and gates of pearl.

This is why God wants us to have money but satan's job is to stop that. His job is to keep us too broke, too sick, and too defeated to even care about preaching the gospel to the rest of the world. Satan's job to make life so miserable for Christians that we are too busy trying to figure out how to pay our bills when we could tap into the overflow of God, and pay some sinner's bills. Then witness to him, because after paying his bills, I promise you he will be open to hearing about your Jesus.

This is what Creflo Dollar Jr. preaches. This is what Keith Butlers, and Fred Price, and Kenneth Copelands and the TD Jakes preach. It is all for the sake of being a witness.

No, you are not less of a Christian because you are broke, sick, or defeated. If you name the name of Christ, you are just as much of a Christian as anybody else. Health, money, and victory doesn't make us saved. Jesus is the reason why we saved.

Health, money, and victory is not for you to be saved but so you can get other people saved. Yeah you can witness sick, broke, and defeated. But imagine how much more you could do if you were healed, wealthy, and victorious.

It is not about us, it is about what we can do for someone else and money is just simply a tool to do more. If you had $35,000,000 would you do what Mel Gibson did? I would hope so. But if not, then I have to question how much of an impact you want to make in the world. Are you satisfied with what you give God now or do you desire to give more? I do. And according to Deut 8:18, God has given me the power to get more so I CAN DO MORE..... FOR HIM!

That is all Creflo and Kenneth and TD Jakes is trying to do. But they get opposition, not from athiest, gay people, muslims, buddhist, and hindus. The #1 people who oppose them are born again religious ignorant Christians. The people who set Jesus up to be crucified were the religious leaders, not sinners. The sinners had no problems with Jesus. It was the so called "church folk."

No wonder we can't penetrate the Arabic countries. The body of Christ is shooting itself in the foot.

So God wants all His children to be in the overflow so we can be a witness. But God's problem is that His own children won't receive His promises and without faith, we can't receive it.

I want them to read strong's concordance. Help along the way does not sound like 30/60/100/1000 to me.

You have men who "SAY" they are anointed. Who "SAY" they are receiving DIRECT messages from the Holy Spirit. But the question is, ARE THEY? How do we judge prophets? They are either right or wrong/true or false. What happens when THEIR word which they sasid to be God's Word, RETURNS VOID? Exactly! It was not God's words they were speaking.

You all just start visiting some websites and you will see what they are and are not preaching. These men aren't simply, "MISSING GOD". They are continuously missing God and not being held accountable for it, because of the fear that Word Faith preachers are not to be touched because they are the Lord's anointed. The difference between Saul's anointing and these guys claiming to be anointed is just that. Everyone KNEW that Saul was anointed, because an authenticated and proven TRUE prophet Samuel anointed him before all Israel. There is a big difference in being publicly anointed by a TRUE prophet and being self-anointed or anointed or ordained by a false prophet or teacher. NEVER MORE have I seen the ITCHING EARS scripture come to pass than in this movement. I have ONE scripture DaGoodSoldier- YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT!

What was the deal with the shooting at World Changer's Church? A disgruntled employee or what?

III John 2 has nothing to do with being rich or having money.

For me I see both points. My Pastor drives a very nice car and people have been talkin since day one. It upsets meto know that worldy folks can drive expensive vehicles and live in nice homes but people act like God's people are supposed to settle for second best. I believe that God wants His people to have the best of everything. I guess on the same token though prosperity should be second priority to salvation and living Holy. Honestly I want a nice home with a lake, and a nice boat so I can fish, and a nice Mercedez Benz S600. I also know that having those things will not compromise my salvation. Now some people God have not given them the financial increase they want is because some people as long as they are barely making it they serve God regularly, but when they start seeming to get ahead they don't even act like they know who God is. God never gives us blessings we are not prepared for. Thats why I say its hard for me to prophesy to someone that its their season for a breakthrough when I dont really even know if God is really preparing them for that.

I have purposely taken this person's name out. The next person I quote will not have a name either. I want you to see the same cliches and sound bites. I will put XXXX's where the name was. There may be certain things written that will give the identity away, but that proves just who is listening to these people and who is not or who simply heard them. I actually heard this crap with my own ears. So it's not a matter of it being hearsay for me.


"xxxxx


xxxxxxx threatened people that they can bring a curse on themselves if they do not fulfill their vow to sow a seed: "And so the principle here is if I take for myself when it's time to give to the kingdom I can bring a curse on myself." She also threatened death to people that didn't go to the phone and give a donation during a recent Benny Hinn Telethon: "You will die! You will die unless you go to the phone and do what God says to do." She even boldly tells people to give their vacation money, savings, CD's, and investments!



xxxxxx:



"Don't just listen to the Word of the Lord, you got to do the Word of the Lord! You will die! You will die unless you go to the phone and do what God says to do."

(xxxxxx, Benny Hinn Telethon, LeSea Network, April 16, 2004)



"So, the instruction of the Lord is for the next 12 months to sow $66.12."

(xxxxx, "Spring Praise-A-Thon," TBN, April 5, 2005)



"God has spoken to you and right now I want you to obey that God is speaking to send in a sacrificial seed. He's telling you an instruction of the Lord, an illogical instruction. Well, Paula you don't understand. I'm telling you, I need to be obedient to the Lord. Cause God even spoke to people, their vacation money, savings, CD's, and investments and you looked at it and said, 'But God, this is it.' And God spoke to you and He told you to sow that into the kingdom of God. And when you obey, that which God has promised to you shall come to pass."

(xxxxxx, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show," July 23, 2004)



"Psalm 66:12, 'Through the fire--through the flood to the wealthy place.' I want you to sow $66.12 for the next 12 months believing God to bring you to the wealthy place."

(xxxxxx, "Spring Praise-A-Thon," TBN, April 5, 2005)



"God is saying, 'I want you to hook up to something bigger than you. I want you to believe that as you sow $66.12--put your faith with the Word of God. That the Word of God will never return void--but will work on your behalf and that it will bring you out of the fire and bring you out of the flood unto the wealthy place.'"

(xxxxxxx, "Spring Praise-A-Thon," TBN, April 5, 2005)



"So, the question is, 'Not can God do it--Will God do it?' You need to get up and go to the phone! You need to get up and go to the phone right now! Listen we got about 23 minutes until we go to California. For the next several minutes you need to say, 'xxxxx, I'm not going to miss my moment! But I'm going to get in on my miracle!'"

(xxxxxx, "Spring Praise-A-Thon," TBN, April 5, 2005)"

Ba hah hah hah hah hahhhhhh!

Ahhh man Rev. that is funny. Any Christian stupid enough to give money because someone pointed to them in a television is a sucker anyway. Now I am not saying that TBN is wrong because I didn't see this on TBN. To tell you the truth I don't really watch TBN or Christian television period. So people will have to judge that on they on.

I stick with the Word. The word says God loves a cheerful giver. The word says not to give grudingly or of necessity but to give what God (not someone else) has put on your heart. And that is outside the Tithe and Firstfruit.

So again, I am not defending ALL word of faith teachers, I can only speak for the ones I listen to like Kenneth Copeland, Creflo, Bill Winston, Bryan Crute, Keith Butler, Fred Price, and a select few others. So all these other ones, I am not saying anything bad about them because the bible says not to judge. All I know is I can hear from God so if someone tells me to give something God hasn't spoke to me about, I ain't giving it I don't care what they say.

But that is hilarious Rev. I hope to God it ain't true. But that is hilarious.

Know you are WRONG Goodsoldier. And the typical WORD FAITH mentality has come forth.

So if someone is stupid enough to give, then the person saying it MUST BE EQUALLY stupid? I cant' wait until those XXXXXX's turn to names. As for the guys you mentioned and your Pastor; I will prove that they all have said equally stupid (ACCORDING TO YOU) things. As a matter of fact, I will quote all of them in one post. Then people will be able to see the trickery and deceit for themselves.

You don't judge??????????????? Mike, be sensible!

Hey Rev,
Do you ever read the bible or do you just go around quoting other people?

Is your ministry built off the word or just dogging other people out?

There is a preacher in ATL whose church is built off dogging other preachers. All he does is get famous preachers tapes, play parts of the tapes out of context, and then spends the rest of the time dogging them out.

After he dogs out these famous preachers, he hops in a Jaguar and drives to his house in a nice suburb where celebrities live. While his congregation lives in poverty. He preaches poverty but doesn't live what he preaches. Now I ask you, who is the real crook? This preacher got to dogging one WOF(Word of Faith) preacher out so much, that some his congregation, out of curiosity, went to this WOF church because they wanted to hear the whole message. After they heard the whole message in context, they joined the church and went back and tried to tell their former fellow members they were being deceived by the religious preacher.

But Rev, when are we going to see some word? Everything else you say is your opinion and judgement. You still have failed to produce ONE scripture that says Christians are suppose to be defeated, broke, and sick. You can't convince people with quotes. Let's see the word.

The word ends all argument. If you show us in the Word where Christians are supposed to be broke, sick, and defeated, we'll believe you.

The reason why I know your quotes are a lie is because everything I have said on this post I was taught by my pastor and all the other men of God I mentioned earlier. With the exception of what I said about my recommendation that Christians shouldn't pledge; that was my opinion. But all the scriptures I shared with you I was taught by them.

If the WOF preachers are of satan and I am in league with them, then why am I preaching something contrary to what you are saying these WOF teachers teach? Can a kingdom divided against itself stand? If I am suppose to deceive people into thinking that Jesus needed to get born again, am I divided against my pastor if I am all over this post telling you that Jesus didn't get born again and that He was born righteous?

Wouldn't it behoove me to preach on this site the same thing you accuse them of preaching?

So stop mis-quoting them and focus on me.

Tell me something Rev, THAT I SAID, that you feel is heresy and then let us go to the word to see if it be true. I AM ALSO A WORD OF FAITH PREACHER. So dogg me out Rev. Copy and paste what I said in earlier post that you feel is heresy and then we'll go to the word and see.

Since God and His word are One, we'll let God's word decide who is speaking truth and who is speaking heresy.

So let's do this Rev. God vs. Religion! I wonder who will win.

Yeah, focus on me. It easy to judge some WOF preacher who wouldn't dare waste their time arguing with you. But I'll do it. They are busy flying around the world preaching the gospel. I can't go so I send them money so they can go. So since I can't go, I'll do my preaching right here.

Come with the word Hatchett. Come with scripture.

Rev wrote:

What was the deal with the shooting at World Changer's Church? A disgruntled employee or what?

----> Normally I wouldn't refer you to the media but they actually got this one right. Go to the website below and they have the full story of what happened.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/0805/09world.html


Rev wrote:
III John 2 has nothing to do with being rich or having money.

-----> Okay Rev, let's go to the Strong Concordance. Now everyone, remember in the post above the Rev wrote "help on the road." The Rev got this from the Strong's concordance. Now remember I told you in earlier post (that have now been erased) is that when a person has the spirit of religion on them, they only tell you partial truths. Even though the Rev read in the Strong's concordance what I am about to show you, he only chose to share the meaning that supports his poverty doctrine. As a WOF preacher, since I am considered an heretic, I am about to share with you what the Rev conveniently left out because the spirit of religion always banks on the fact that people will not do their own research. So now, let's look at 3rd John 1:2 again:

(2) Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Now the Rev mentioned that the word prosper here means to have help on the road or to go on a journey. But when you look up the word "prosper" and "prospereth" in the greek, they both come from the same Greek word;

The Greek word for "prosper" is EUODOO pronounced yoo-od-ee'-ah. It has 3 meanings:

1. to help on the road (The Rev shared this one)
2. succeed in reaching
3. succeed in business affairs

Okay, now the Rev said that 111 John 1:2 has NOTHING to do with money correct? If you do your research, you will find that back in these days, 9 to 5 jobs were not readily available. So when people wanted material wealth, they had to go out and barter and trade. So people, in order to get money would go on road trips to barter and trade for what they wanted.
So a guy who made clothes would go on road trips to trade his clothes for other goods and often times money. Apostle Paul did this. He had his own business that he did when he was on the road. Look.....

Acts 18:2-3 (Focus on verse 3)

(2) And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

(3) And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their OCCUPATION they were tentmakers.

-----> Look at how Apostle Paul made money. He had his own business and he had a business partner named Aquila. So as you know, Paul was always on the road and this is how he worked to feed himself.

----> So what is considered a successful business? A business that makes money right? Do we call a company that never makes money a successful business? Of course not. So Paul also wished the same things on His spiritual children, that they would prosper or have successful business ventures when they went on the road.

Why? Why would Paul wish something like that? Because he wanted them to have money to give. Look at the rest of that chapter from 3rd John 1:5-6 ....

(5) Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;

(6) Which have borne witness of thy CHARITY before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:


-----> Look at the charity. Paul wanted them to give but how can you give unless you have prospered yourself? How can you give unless you have a successful business venture and how can you go on a business venture if you are sick? So Apostle Paul said, hey, I want you guys to support the gospel. Therefore I wish above all things that you prosper (go on the road and do successful business) and be well enough to go so you can make plenty of money to support the church. Look again, not at other preacher's misquotes, but look at the bible:

1st Corinthians 16:1-3

(1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

---> Look, Paul is giving the church at Corinth instructions about collecting an offering

(2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath PROSPERED him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

-----> So God is the one who prospers us. So how can the prosperity message be evil if God is the one doing it. But why? Why does God prosper us?

(3) And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

----> Oh, the offering is for the saints at Jerusalem. They were supporting the church with the money that they got from doing successful business on the road. This is the purpose for prosperity.

Now, I have shared with you the word. Not my opinion, or the mis-quotes of other WOF preachers. I did not know this. I was taught this by my pastor whom the Rev calls a heretic. But you just saw for yourself what the word said.

So now you judge. Is what I just said in the bible or not? Is what I just said heresy?

The more successful your business is, the more you can give right? Even if all you give is the 10%. 10% of $1,000,000 can feed a lot more people than 10% of a $1,000. And since all the money belongs to God, we are only giving Him what He gave us the ability to get anyway.

Now is the REV going to come back with scripture or more mis-quotes?

Da Good Soldier,

When I refer to someone being "religious" I mean that that's all to them; they don't have a relationship with God, they don't come to church for the right reasons, they only come to church out of habit and tradition b/c that's what they were raised to do, they talk the talk but don't walk the walk basically. So what is your definition of "religious"? And does your pastor teach that there is a "spirit" of being religious? (not saying that there isn't, just asking). And lastly, why do you refer to Minister Hatchett as religious?

What about the fact that Word Faith teaches that we are Gods because we are in His image. And what about the folk who God has called to suffer for his namesake. We in the western world, especially those of us who are not use to money think that's all God should be about - our prosperity. God is not Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. In no other part of the world will you find these crazy extreme pprosperity antics. And what about the fact that TD Jakes is a modulist who does not teach the triune God. Some issues that we debate as Christians are not salvation issues, but the Triune God and whether or not we are mini-Gods are big salvation issues. And the minute you hear a preacher say something that crazy is when you can justly label him or her a heretic and apostate and wash your hands from their teachings. I don't care how much money they make, how good they look in a suit, or what kind of car they drive.

What about the persecuted church, y'all. People who God has called to literally suffer in His name. THOSE are the ones who are doing GREATER works for His name sake. That's who Jesus is talking about. The Pauls and Peters of this world who have not loved their lives unto death. It is going on right now. Christians are dying in China, India, Pakistan, all over Africa becuase they have denounced the religions of their fathers for the name of Jesus. They are imprisoned, beaten, fed worms, locked in ice boxes until they die a slow and painful death.

While we are all wrapped up in all this prosperity mess, how many of us share that prosperity with the persecuted church? These people, like Richard Wurmbrand and his wife who spent years in Communist concentration camps for preaching Christ, only to be released to go out and preach again - then be re-imprisoned.

"My hope is built on NOTHING less, than Jesus blood and righteousness." Blessed be the name of the Lord who gives and takes away. If he makes you rich, it's not for you to go flossing around town, it is God's wealth for you to take care of HIS people. That is what the great men and women of the Word did with their prosperity.

Would I like to have more money, sure. Do I like nice things, of course. But, we have got to stop looking at ministry as some type of financial security and gravy train.

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs was founded by Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand.

Dear Me:
Thanks for responding intelligently. My definition of religious people is basically the same as yours. The only thing I add is another characteristic of religious people is a failure to recognize the people that God has anointed because they don't carry themselves the way Christian-ism has defined as a way religious people should carry themselves. Christian-ism is a religious, no power form of true Christianity.

A religious spirit is a demonic spirit. Now I am not saying that Rev. Hatchett is demon possessed. Being influenced by demons and being possessed by them are two different things.

Peter was influenced by a demon when he told Jesus he would not let him die on the cross. But Judas was possessed by demons when he betrayed Christ. We all are influenced by demons sometimes. The important thing is to recognize it so you won't allow these demons to deceive you.

The Pharisees, although they knew scripture and enforced the law to the LETTER, could not recognize that God was with Jesus and that God is Jesus. They saw the miracles, they saw the healings, they heard the wisdom. But even after seeing it and hearing it, they still betrayed Him. They were more concerned about losing control than they were following God. This is the demonic spirit of religion. Everything that Jesus did lined up with the scriptures. But the Pharisees, even though they knew the scriptures, had no revelation of it and therefore still couldn't see that Jesus was fullfilling every prophecy. All they could do was tell lies on Jesus and take what he said out of context. Sound familiar?

When Jesus died on the cross, he did something that had never been done before. He took a Spirit being, who had been separated from God, and reunited them with God (or at least made a way for them to be re-united with God). Those spirit beings are us.

When God created man, He created us in His image and likeness. Is God a Spirit? Yes. So he created us as Spirit Beings. But after He made us, he put our Spirits in fleshy bodies so we could interact with this physical universe. He then gave us Dominion which means he gave us the authority oversee everything He created.

But when Adam sinned, he handed all this authority over to satan making satan the "god" of this world. Now God did not give satan the authority over this world. According to Genesis, he gave authority to who? Adam, right? So then how did Satan become the "god" of this world? If God did not make satan "god," then who did? That's right, Adam. He was the only one who could have because God made him the ruler of the earth and Adam handed that rulership over to satan making him "god" of this world.

So Jesus didn't come back just so we could go to heaven. He came back to give Mankind our rulership back. He came to give us the power to have dominion or dominate. Notice Jesus never saw poverty, sickness, or defeat until He allowed it for the sake of the cross. In other words satan could not overcome Jesus with his works until Jesus allowed it...and the only reason He allowed it because His death was necessary to return humanity back to the state of Adam. To return rulership of the earth back to mankind.

So satan is fully aware than a human being, who is one with God, has authority over everything God created EXCEPT God Himself. But satan knows that most human beings and even 85% of all Christians don't know this. The Apostles and the 1st saints knew. This is why they walked in the gifts of the spirit, healed the sick, raised the dead, and so forth. But satan created religious Christianity to tell Christians that Jesus, the apostles, and some of the 1st saints were special people and that God only anointed them because they were the 1st converts.

Satan convinced us that God has now taken His authority and power away from the body of Christ and now Christians must only get saved, live right, and wait for Jesus to bust through the clouds and deliver us from debt, sickness, and death.

So this is the purpose of all religions, to tell men that they are powerless against nature, their circumstances, terrorist, sickness, and death. That humanity is nothing but a bunch of filthy rags who God is angry at and stands in heaven with his gun picking us off one by one. Or God doesn't kill us but allows satan to just run all over us.

So when you meet people who teach this, they are religious. They have no idea who they are and the purpose for Jesus coming. And satan takes advantage of their ignorance.

As a Christian, God, the all powerful Creator of the Universe is IN YOU. So if ALL POWER IS IN YOU, how can you be defeated? Here's how, if you don't know who you are and if YOU DON'T BELIEVE.

In the movie Matrix, the character Neo had the power to stop bullets in mid air at the beginning of the movie. Yet he didn't do it until the end because it took him that long to BELIEVE AND BE FULLY PERSUADED AND CONVINCED THAT HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE. Until he believed, he could not dominate the matrix. Oh if God what would happen if 50% of the saints on earth knew who they were.

Dear Me:

So this is why I call Rev. Hatchett, Pharisee Hatchett. He knows the scriptures but doesn't have a revelation of them.

Even though I have begged Rev. Hatchett to show me in the bible where it says that Christians do not have any dominion and that we are to live our lives poor, broke, sick, and defeated. He can't show me any scriptures because he can't find them. But like a Pharisee, he can't open himself up to the fact that it doesn't make sense that we as Christians are the only "religion" that claims to have God on the inside of us but yet have none of His power.
And rather than saying that himself and humans must be doing something wrong, he chooses to believe that God's to blame because He took His power away from the body of Christ and left us in a evil world powerless. He honestly believes that it is God's will for us to suffer. It is not God's will for humanity to suffer. God's will for us is the Garden of Eden. But when Adam gave that up, suffering became in with sin. God did not come to stop suffering, He came to give us the power to overcome it. This is what the Apostles did over and over again until they were ready to die.

Like the Pharisees, Rev. Hatchett tries to make the men on earth who are anointed by God look bad. Remember how the Pharisees always tried to catch Jesus speaking against Moses. They did this to turn the people against Jesus so they would kill Him. But everytime they came at Jesus, He proved them wrong with the scriptures and then with a demonstation of power.

Remember when they caught Jesus. Remember how they lied on Jesus and twisted what he said. Sound familiar.

So this is why Rev. Hatchett's action are so predictable. This is why he always responds to me with lies and misquotes but never with scripture. On the rare occasion he does come with scripture, the scripture never clearly says that Christians are suppose to be defeated the way it clearly says that God always causes us to triumph.

Rev. Hatchett will tell you that III John 1:2 has nothing to do with prosperity but he never tells you the scripture that backs up his claim. He gives his opinion, lies, mis-quotes, and then he's gone.

If you are willing, do a study on the Pharisees. Look at how they talked to Jesus. Look at how they tried to come against him. Then go back and read this post and all Rev. Hatchett's responses to me and look at the similarities.

Don't get me wrong, I love Rev. Hatchett and normally when I meet religious Christians, I don't openly challenge them. The ONLY reason I am going back and forth with him on this site is for the sake of all the others who visit this site to show them the spirit behind people like Rev. Hatchett so you can recognize it when you see it.

Saints, sinners are dying and going to hell. Jesus commissioned us to direct them to Him. But we can't preach who Jesus is if we don't know who Jesus has made us to be. We are new creatures. But what kind of new creature are we if we are just as broke, defeated, and sick as the old creatures? There has to be some tangible difference between us and them.

People will be able to read it all for themselves DGS. They will make the determination, not me or your long soliloquoys. III John 2 is speaking of the prosperity of physical and spiritual health. Where is the context of MONEY come in here. It came in the mind of some individual. But in I Corinthians 16:2, it is contextually clear that MONEY is being discussed. So once again, we do not disagree on the meaning of euodoo(prosper). You can't take 3 separate definitions and then use the one that YOU want to fit your purpose. That's like defining the word invisible as something that is unable to seen. Is that really true? Does invisibility always have to do with the physical ability to see? What about the word see? Does it always mean physical sight? If someone says I see what you mean, it could be in a mental or physical capacity. You would have to KNOW (another word that can have several meanings) THE CONTEXT of the situation to define the word. You couldn't simply read 3 definitions of the word and choose the one you want. It is simple to make scripture suit what you want. It is much different when you look at it contextually. People always accused me of using scripture out of context, but would never say how. I am showing you how the scripture used above is out of context. IF III John 2 is saying what you believe, then John is placing MONEY before your health and soul.

What WF preachers do is trust the KJV wholeheartedly? They do not study Greek or Hebrew. They rely on the Holy Spirit without following the command of studying the Word.

Now WHY did Paul work DGS? If Paul worked, then all "Apostles" should be working. Paul did not have to work. He did it for two specific reasons.

Re: Rev. Hatchett

And see everyone, this is what I mean by a Pharisee spirit. Notice how what I said went through one ear and out the other for the Rev. (Or I guess eye in this case).

Now, to everyone else. In my post, did I not clearly specify what the #1 reason was for III John 1:2. The ultimate goal is to win souls. I did not say that Apostle Paul's #1 goal was for us to have money. The number one goal is for us to support and finance the spreading of the gospel and we do that how, by prospering. Paul wished above all things that we have financial wealth to support the gospel and that we be well so we can go out and work. Did I not say that?

But the Rev cannot see that. This is what I mean by the spirit of religion. Once you as an individual decide to be religious, you will deny the truth even if it is staring you in the face. I didn't use one meaning. I used all three meanings. I even gave you other scriptures to support all 3 meanings. Help on the road in your business travels. All 3 meanings go together in one. They are not separate. But when you've already made up in your mind that you are preaching poverty no matter what the bible says, you can't be reasoned with.

Now I have another challenge for you Rev. Show us scripture that says Christians are not suppose to prosper to support your claim that III John 1:2 isn't referring to financial prosperity even though the greek definition says being successful in business, on the road.

Do you have a scripture that just outright says "thou shalt be poor, sick, and defeated until the rapture." Just give me one scripture where Jesus or God or anyone said, to follow God, you must remain poor and you can never have more than enough. Show us the scripture where God commands us to live from paycheck to paycheck, barely scraping by.

Show us the scripture God commanded that we must never have over a certain amount of money or we're guilty of heresy.

Does the bible tells us how much money is too much? At what point Rev does a man have too much money? What is God's finiancial limit? $1000? $10,000? $500,000? $1,000,000? Please show me Rev in the scripture and it will sufficeth me.

So if you are right, then what your pastor and many others are teaching is wrong. Just wait for the quotes. I am going to have to delete all the posts after my response to your big laugh. Your laugh won't be so big when you realize your pastor said something just as idiotic and then some. There were two reasons why Paul worked. One of those reasons is why these prosperity mongers need to stop and get a job for all the confusion they are causing.

Please read carefully. Especially the paragraph that says "Charasmatic differences"

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf26.htm

Look at the date on this. Copeland has been preaching these lies for years.

"Even though I have begged Rev. Hatchett to show me in the bible where it says that Christians do not have any dominion and that we are to live our lives poor, broke, sick, and defeated. "

Isaih 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Jesus very human existance required that he be poor, broke and defeated. Sometimes God calls his chosen to suffer for his will to be done.

Romans 5
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Matthew 8
19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 21

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The book of Revelations is past, present, and future. Many of God's choice servants were and are ostricized and persecuted for His pure Glory.

Good Soldier, everyone of God's children including our Lord and Savior is not called to make a killing and be without sickness, with a boatload of money. And it's not a the properity folk teach, that folks who don't have don't "BELEEEEIIIVE" enough. It's because God is sovereign and He gives and takes away as Job said, for HIS divine purpose.

I had a miscarriage, and I guess that good christian folks aren't suppose to. But while in the hospital bleeding out I had the OPPURTUNITY to pray for the nurse who cared for me because her child was dying of lukemia. If that is the reason God caused me to lose my child so that I could pray for the brethren, then so be it, blessed be the name of the Lord. Benny Hinn and some others have said people lose their babies and get sick because their faith isn't BIG enough. Bull dung.

I will provide more scipture.

Correction, that he be poor, broke and defeated at some points in his human existance to show forth the Glory of the Lord, and the extent of his suffering for our redemption.

Oh and which is better,

a person who suffers for the lot of us and to the glory of God or someone who is wealthy off the tithes of poor people who can barely pay their rent.

People want to glamourize the "prosperity" but look at the apostles, most of them who died grusome deaths for the Word. And they didn't have security, entourages, private planes, hummers, and large private estates. Show me where they did.

Paul, as a matter of fact gave up his ambitious career plan as a very promising Rabbi to follow Jesus. He had to use an alias, hide out in folks homes and sneak in and out of towns. And he knew what he had gotten into because he persecuted Christians himself.

Peter was matyred upside down on a cross because he felt he wasn't even worthy to die right side up as Jesus did. Jesus even spoke in the Gospel of Peters end and stated that it Peter would glorify God in his death.

Yes, while God does maketh rich, it's not meant for everyone to be rich. Not because someone's faith isn't big enough, but because God has not designed for them to be rich.

Someone's grave illness could mean another person's salvation. What to you think God values more money or salvation?

Someone who lives a life of victory while they are poor could bring others to Christ. In the persecuted church many of the prison guards and soldiers give their lives to Christ because they watch a people love God so much that they endure the suffering and it breaks their own stony hearts. And persecuted peoples and those on the mission field live victorious lives with very little materially becasue their desire it to win souls not fatten their pockets.

1st Corinthians 10:24
Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

Our greatest wealth is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

What dominion do we have DGS? Who has walked on water lately? Who has spoken a new galaxy into existence like these WOF preachers claim we can do but NEVER HAVE DONE THEMSELVES. They are nothing but a bunch of hot air baloons waiting to bust. You see, there is a GREAT difference between the Apostles and preachers today, specifically WOF preachers. When Paul preached, TRUE power followed. If Paul came with judgment, judgment fell. These WOF preachers pronounce curses on people that should have come to pass years ago according to their word from the Lord. When enemies messed with him, he blinded them or cast demons out of them. How many times have these WOF preachers been beaten, starved almost to death due to persecution, thrown in jail, etc.

Like I said, I am waiting for the tape of the fully restored limbs. God AUTHENTICATED His Apostles and Prophets by giving them the power. NOW AS YOU CLAIM, IF HE DID IT THEN, HE SHOULD BE DOING IT TODAY. BUT EVEN THIS RELIGIOUS PHARISEE CAN SEE THAT THESE MEN AND WOMEN are not being authenticated.

These guys and gals are all talk, no action, appealing to emotion and raking in the dough.

We have dominion, but not to the length that you are proclaiming. If so, then why are we one of the sickest nation in the world? Remember that movie, "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin?

Well! MMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! Let me tell you about a man named Jesus. He was rich, yet for our sake became poor. He had all power, yet limited Himself to the guise of a sinful to save man, for in that he suffered being tempted, he is able to help them that are tempted. To make man's soul rich, not his pockets, just because He's saved. Some say His Blood Atonement did not save! Weeeeeeeeelllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!! I guess they never read Hebrews 9:22. I guess they never read, "IT IS FINISHED"!!!!!!!!!! Some of these WOF preachers say that Jesus was not God in the flesh! MY GOD MY GOD, that makes them antichrists!!!!!!!! For if He was not deity, that means He was born in sin, just like you and me, which they preach also. What preacher? They belieeeeevvvvvvvveeeee that JESUS had to be BORN AGAIN and took upon Himself, the NATURE of SATAN!!!!!

Come on everyone and let's pray. Father, I pray that these men and women will allow you to lead them and guide them in all truth by your Holy Spirit. I thank-you Father that their blinded eyes be opened and they repent of their evil. I pray that they will do it publicly, vowing never to return to the vomit of Word Faith teachings, in Jesus Name. AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

Now you might think I am playing, but I am not. So don't pop off like I am trying to ridicule. What I wrote is to be taken seriously.

My stance to many of these arguements is not the beliefs any of you have but the reason why you believe what you believe. For instance, Jadyn quoted isaiah 53, which is a continuation from isaiah 52, which both are continuations from another passage of out isaiah. When you translate isaiah 52 & 53 directly from the hebrew into english (without any preconceived notions about what you expect it to say) you will see that it reads differently. Why does that matter, bc the idea is the same right? Well the actual answer is no. The idea and concept is not the same. And if you can take different biblical passages and read them a certain way, you can develop various ideologies and concepts and then promote them.

The common ground that most of us have who post and read on this website is that we want to be right with G-d. That is why Mr. Hatchett and others have denounced their organizations, and that is why they wish to reach others with the same knowledge and conviction that touches them so deeply. What I am doing is adding understanding to their beliefs so that there can be a balance and individuals can make more qualified and informed decisions. Me spoke about truth in a previous post. The interesting thing about truth is that it transcends demonitional beliefs or religious differences. It is the one thing that stands up against everything. Truth remains the same throughout time. And if you look through the pages of history you will see that there are many modern day religious views and practices that do not line up with truth.

Mr. Hatchett I posed this question to you a year ago on a previous forum, but I would like to say it again here. You have gone through great lengths to "expose" glos, but why not go all the way and expose "all" those things that are not of G-d, beginning with things in your own faith? Historically the first xians did not worship on sunday. That was something that was forced into the church some 300yrs after the apostles died. Many "true" xian martyrs died resisting the change of their day of worship. Birthday celebrations and birthday cakes all came from pagan origins and their practice is still being used today by many good xians. Xianity never observed easter or xmas as a holiday, but that was something that was later introduced as a way of appeasing the pagans that converted to xianity. And as you know there are many more things that are of pagan origins that are still being practiced by the church today. Why do you not make a complete stance and tell everyone to stop doing these things also? As you can see this would be a huge challenge to undertake bc the church as a whole has been doing these practices for over 1500yrs and many have been acculturated into believing it is okay. You will even have some say that G-d is more concerned about their hearts as they continue to observe these pagan practices. But then isn't that the same arguement that many xians in glos have been saying. Haven't they been saying that they are not worshipping an idol and that they are only focused on G-d and perhaps reaching others through their organizations? However for them that is a worthless claim bc they are in a glo and all glos are wrong, eventhough their arguement is the same as those xians who wish to continue to blindly observe easter, xmas, birthdays, sunday worship and other days of pagan origins that have been twisted to fit a xian experience while history states something completely different.

I agree that the majority of these practices are Pagan. As for Saturday-Sunday worship, Who Cares if it's Monday? This is an irrelevant issue. Knowingly participating in Pagan festivals and being exposing GLO's would be rather hypocritical. As for exposing these other pagan practices which have become tradition in the Christian Church, I am no stranger to that either. As for desiring truth, I desire it for you. As for Isaiah 52:13-53, we do not agree on. Israel IS NOT the Suffering Servant. Let your ignorance for HISTORICAL FACTS be your guide.

I do not mind one day privately giving you a word for word hebrew to english translation of isaiah and other "old testament" passages that you are convinced reads a certain way (don't have the time right now, but maybe in the distant future).

I will however share this with you, Isaiah 53:5 from hebrew to direct english reads "he was wounded from our transgression, he was bruised from our sins". This small word change of 'from' to 'for' is not that big of a deal unless we understand who 'he' is. Now I will use Isaiah 53:8 as a guide to getting an idea of who 'he' is.

Isaiah 53:8 follows the theme that he uses in other chapters and verses to identify if 'he' is a single person or a collective group of people referred to the singular. The direct hebrew reads:

"Mi Pesha Ami Nega Lamo"

Translated to english it reads:

“from the sins of my people, were THEY stricken.”

The hebrew word/prefix 'Mi' means “from” as in “from the sins”(which is the same prefix used in verse 5) The word/prefix that means “for” is 'Lih' in hebrew. If you put the properly translated prefixes in the passage, it changes from saying “for” the sins of my people to saying “from” the sins of my people. (these are some of the minor translation errors that i previously stated to you, that can change the whole meaning of a verse if you do not read it in its proper context)

The verse then continues on and uses the hebrew words 'Nega L'amo'. This is translated in english as “they were stricken” (or literally “was the blow to them.”)

The important concept is that the word 'L'amo' means “to them” in hebrew. not “to him”. The english translation of 'to him' in hebrew is actually “lo” not, “L'amo”.

In Deuteronomy 33:2. the word 'L'amo' is used when it says "And he said, The L-rd came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir “to them”- L'amo.

Psalm 78:24. And rained down manna upon them to eat, and of the grain of heaven had given “to them” -L'amo.

So 'L'amo' is used in deuteronomy, psalms, and in isaiah. In deuteronomy and psalms,it means "to them", it does not change its meaning in isaiah.

In addition there is another verse near the end of isaiah 53 that in hebrew states if the "suffering servant" repents, he will have long days.

These are just some small things I understand and know to be true as I read the bible in hebrew. I chose to share them with you so that you can understand that I am not reading an english text and then denying what it says. I am reading the hebrew text and denying what the english translators have done with the scriptures.

Oooh I left this off. With regards to Saturday-Sunday worship, the big difference is that Saturday is the only day that G-d Himself set aside (sanctified) and made holy. He did not do that with any other day. Mankind has chosen different days to make holy to their gods, but this is the only day of the weak that the creator of the universe Himself made holy.

It may not be a big deal to any of us now, but it was a big deal to G-d during the 'old testament' times when He created the 'heavens and the earth - hashaymayim v'ha'aretz'. It was a big deal to j*s*s and the apostles during 'new testament' times. And it was a big enough deal for all of those early xians who were murdered for refusing to worship G-d on any other day than saturday.

All of this info. can be found in the books:

"History of christianity" Vol. I
"Our father abraham the jewish roots of the christian faith"
"Jewish roots"
"Pagan christianity"
"Constantine the great"
"The history of rabbi akiva"
"Jesus the jew"
"From Saturday to Sunday"

As well as various archived chronicles of catholic bishops who spoke about the change after the catechism and subsequent reformation in writings such as:

"Faith of our Fathers"
"Manual of Christian Doctrine"
"A doctrinal catechism" 3rd edition
"Plain Sermons on Catechism" Vol. I

Man, this thing with Saturday/ Sunday. I've spokent about this b4, but not on this site. No one really knows what day it is, one, because there are different calendars in different locations and some might say well this one is right and that one is wrong, but my other reason for saying that no one really knows what day God rested is because HE DIDN'T HAVE A CALENDAR TO TELL US what day it was. Man decided that from this point on this is Monday, the next day Tuesday...... and I don't know how but things changed and now it's Sunday, then Monday....blah,blah, blah...... I worship on Sunday, but if it became a law that we worship on Monday---OH WELL. Now this is the "religious spirit" DGS! (being too big on what day to worship). Why do I say that? Because we are to worship Him everday! Yet we are to come together to celebrate together and keep the Sabbath. But the true Sabbath could be on Wednesday for all we know. I don't think God is mad at any of us for not really knowing what we think we know b/c we can only go by what's put out there and what does our calendar say. Just like Jesus was born around the "25th" of December, but may have actually been early January some say. The point is that we celebrate the birth---the day of the birth. So the same with the Sabbath is that we celebrate the day that God rested.

Ok, I'm done. God bless. And let's get rid of that "religious spirit"--you know, the "we gotta do it like this" type-spirit, the "let's follow the program" type spirit. (We have a bulletin at my church but nobody looks at it more than once b/c the Holy Spirit is invited to lead the service). Ok, I'm really done. God bless.

"o The Sabbath is the only one of the Ten Commands not repeated in the New Testament.
o Christians met on Sunday, not Saturday (Acts 20:7; I Cor. 16:2).
o Our passage condemns Sabbath observance, Col. 2:16.
o The law was only a shadow of the reality to come (Jesus Christ; Heb 8:5; 10:1). What the Old Testament foreshadowed our Lord fulfilled (Mt. 5:17; Rom. 8:3-4).

PRINCIPLE: The Bible places no special privilege upon worship on special days."
Dr. grant C. Richison
http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/colossians/col021.html

Good God Rev,
Now why can't you respond to me with scripture like that. I read Unity's post and Me is right, she definitely has a religious spirit. I didn't think anyone was more deep into religion than Rev. Hatchett. I think the Rev is just offended but Unity, you are really into the legalistic stuff.
Now Unity you gave a lot of scripture and I don't have the time to address all of them. However it breaks my heart that you call the works of satan the works of God.
It breaks my heart that you honestly think that God Himself tortured His own Son as well as Job, and all the other patriarchs, Apostles, and Prophets in the bible. If you'll go back and look at these scripture in their context, you will see that satan, not God, tortured, killed, and persecuted these Saints.
Remember the book of James, the bible says that God is not tempted of evil neither does He tempt any man to do evil. So did God tempt the Pharisees to crucify Jesus? Did God tempt the gentiles to stone an Apostle?

My God in heaven Unity, why in the world would God KILL your unborn child? Please understand me, I am feel for you because another one of my spiritual sisters just went through the same thing last week. But she is not blaming God.

God is not the devourer! God is not your enemy! Have you not read John 10:10, it is the thief that comes to steal, kill, and destroy. What was Jesus' role? He said He came to give you LIFE and to give it to you more ABUNTANTLY! Is a miscarriage abundant life? Of course not.

The biggest misconception that people have of preachers like me is that we teach that nothing bad should ever happen to Christians. That is not what we teach!!!! We teach that satan always attacks Christians and he uses people to do it. My thing is this, the bible says that we are conquerers, and we are more than conquerers but overcomers. So if we are overcomers then that means we are going to have obstacles to overcome.

We are righteous people living in an unrighteous world. We are at war against the kingdom of hell and we must fight the good fight of faith. But like every war, there are casualties. Soldiers make mistakes and you are deceived if you don't think the Apostles never made mistakes or missed God. And when soldiers make mistakes in battle, sometimes it will cost them their lives and the lives of those around them. But it is not God's fault. Why is it that people blame God for everything?

God is not the devourer, He is not the destroyer, and He is not the one fighting against the saints.

So you guys would rather blame God for the bad things in your life than to take responsibility and say that maybe I didn't have enough faith? So I am a heretic preacher because I put the responsibility of what happen to you, on you, instead of blaming God for it.

satan is our enemy, he is the one we fight against. Sometimes he gets the best of us. But it is not God's will for us to lose. We make mistakes, not God.

So let's do this. Let's go back to the beginning. But before I do that, I will be back to address this Job thing because that is the most misunderstood book in the bible. Job and Revelation.

And Rev. Hatchett, take a note from Unity. Notice she didn't come with quotes from a website. Notice she came with the Word. You ought to try it.

In the Beginning,

Dear Rev, Unity, and any others who believe that God is out to get us:

Answer me this, .....if it was God's will for humanity to be broke, sick, and defeated, why didn't Adam experience any of this BEFORE he sinned?

Why didn't God put sickness, disease, and defeat in the garden of Eden to teach Adam a lesson and to keep him humble....BEFORE HE SINNED?

she definitely has a religious spirit.

Who has a religious spirit?

And somebody give me some scriptures to prove that the Sabbath is on a Saturday or that it's on a Sunday!

And no offense but these scriptures won't due : Acts 20:7; I Cor. 16:2. Why b/c like I said you can only go by what is given to you. Our calendar says Sunday is the first day of the week, others say Monday. My question is WHAT DID THE CALENDAR SAY BEFORE ADAM WAS CREATED? Exactly.

I'd love to hear some responses-------with scriptures.

Once again: the point is that you observe that day and keep it holy as the LORD says, but doesn't God know that there are different calendars? He sees that your heart is willing to keep that day, right?

* Isaiah 1:12-17 *
Isaiah 29:13

Ecclesiastes 7: 16
"DO NOT BE OVERLY RIGHTEOUS, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?"

Oh, wow, look at vs. 15!

Ok, to Min. Hatchett, if you belive that the Sabbath shouldn't be kept on any particular day, then why keep it on a Sunday? Also, let me ask you this...do you eat pork? Does your wife / daughter / sister / mother / any female family member wear make-up, jewelry? The Bible says that we should not eat "un-clean meats" (i.e. animals w/ a split hoof...pigs), we should not adorn ourselves with gold and silver. God made us in His image and his image is perfect; therefore, for us to wear all this make-up and jewelry would be like insulting God.
Let's think about that....

The Book of Job,

Outside of Revelations, the book of Job is the most misunderstood book in the bible. It appears to be completely out of sync with the rest of the bible. The book is the account of a man who lived around the time of Isaac and Jacob and may have been around the time that the Jews were slaves in Egypt.

Unlike the other stories in the bible, Job appeared to have done nothing wrong yet it seems that God took everything he had from him. The misunderstanding of this book has caused Christians to fear God. Not fear in the sense of REVERENTIAL RESPECT but fear in the sense of being terrified of God. Scared of Him. Scared that God is going to get us even if we're good. But it is all a lie from the pit of hell and satan has used this misunderstanding of Job to keep Christians in fear for years.

Job 1:5
(5) And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job CONTINUALLY.

Now Unity, being familiar with the Hebrew you realize that this meant Job made a sin sacrifice everyday for he THOUGHT his children were sinning. So now what motivated Job to do this? Was it faith? If it was faith, why wasn't Job listed with the faith-filled Patriarchs in Hebrews 11? So what was motivating Job? None of the other Patriarchs during this time made sin sacrifices everyday. So why was Job doing this?

Check this out:
Joshua 1:6-7
(6) Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.

(7) Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest.

Look at how God commanded Joshua to be strong and courageous. What is the opposite of courageous? Fear? Notice God wanted Joshua to have no fear. If you go through the bible you'll see that most of the time when an angel showed up, the first thing they said was "have no fear." Why is that? Where does fear come from? Did it come from God? Reverential respect comes from God. But where does fear come from?

Mark 4:39-40
(39) And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

(40) And he said unto them, Why are ye so FEARFUL? how is it that ye have no faith?

---> Look what Jesus said here, he equated fear to being faithless. So if you are full of fear, that means you have no faith. But the bible says that faith works by love and 1 John 4:18 says perfected LOVE cast OUT ALL FEAR. So in order for faith to work, fear must be cast out. So maybe this is why Christians haven't been operating by faith. Maybe it is because we are scared that the faith won't work.

But is fear a sin?

Revelations 21:7-8

(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

( But the FEARFUL, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

---> Hey, it looks like the fearful will be the first ones to go to hell. God mentioned the fearful before he mentioned the *****mongers and gay people.

So now Unity, is it safe to say that FEAR does NOT come from God? So if it didn't come from God, who did it come from? It has to come from sin and the devil. So now, let's go back and look at Job.

Job 1:10-12 (Satan's meeting with God)
(10) Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

(11)But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(12) And the LORD said unto Satan, BEHOLD, ALL THAT HE HATH IS IN THY POWER

(How did this happen Unity? Notice God DID NOT give everything Job had to satan, God simply mentioned to satan that everything Job has was in satan's power. So who, Unity, who killed Job's children and took his wealth? God or satan?

I know, I know. You're saying well 'God gave satan the power.' No, God didn't say satan, I give you the power to hurt Job. God hates satan. Why in the world would God give satan power to hurt his seemingly most faithful child. God would NEVER empower satan. God simply stated a fact. That Job's life was in satan's power but spare Job. )

....only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

So Unity, how did satan get power over Job's family, health, and wealth? Here's how.....

Job 3:25
(25) For the thing which I greatly FEARED is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Ahh, so what happened to Job was Job's fault, not God. It was Job who operated in FEAR, not Faith. So when we operate in fear, our faith fails. Without faith, how can we get the victory over satan? Now, satan stole everything Job had right?

So if satan did it, why did Job blame God for it? Job said the "the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away." But the Lord didn't take anything away from Job. John 10:10 says that satan did. So God does not give and take back. He gives, we operate in fear instead of faith, and therefore we lose what God gave us. But if we stay in faith, and have no fear, then like Joshua we shall prosper and have good success.

ME,

I appreciate your reply. The truth is that Saturday as being a day of worship has always been understood as the 7th day. Herodotus discovered this when he went to different cultures and wrote about what he observed. He saw that in the israelite culture the days were counted from 1 to 7 with 7 being a day that the did nothing but worshipped their creator. Different cultures established their days and times as they wished. Once the babylonians conquered israel, they adopted their system to use as pattering the days, but they changed the names from counting 1 to 7 to names of babylonian gods. The persians conquered the babylonians and then the greeks conquered the persians. The greeks changed the names from to name them after their gods. The romans then conquered the greeks and changed the names again to honor their gods. The roman days are the ones that have still survived till this day. The change the has occured with regards to the calendar is the modern calendar itself. There were 2 modern calendars in existence, one by the roman emporer julian and the 2nd by the gregorian monks. The gregorain monks changed the julian calendar to the calendar we have today bc they found that julian left off certain days when accounting for 1 full calendar year.

During the times of j*s*s, the roman name refernce for days of the week were in existence, but within the jewish culture they still numbered them. Even to this day, the jewish calendar still counts they days as numbers opposed to monday, tues. etc.. and they jewish calendar year is different than the popular gregorian calendar. Even the jewish year is different than the current gregorian year. The days are all in reference to the shabbat. Sunday is called yom rishon, which in hebrew means the 1st day.

The verse in acts that states the apostles met on the 1st day of the week shows exactly how much a part of jewish culture they were. If you continue to read the verse it says that they met to teach and study. Even with this verse in tact xians as a whole still did not worship on sunday. This did not happen until the 4th cent. Therefore, how did they interpret a verse that many use today to prove sunday worship? They interpreted it through the eyes of the culture that the apostles lived in. The culture they lived in was jewish and even to this day all observant jews meet on the 1st day of the week to study and learn. Saturday is strickly a day of worshipping G-d. However sunday and other days are days of intense bible study, lectures, teachings, etc.....

Legalism has nothing to do with this discussion. I simply stated that saturday is the only day G-d Himself hollowed, forget He rested bc we know G-d doesn't need rest so obviously He did not rest in the way we think, on that day. But He did hollow it and set it aside as a day to honor Him. It is legalism to everyone else bc they have been doing sunday worship for the last 1500yrs, but it wasn't always that way. Now that sunday worship has been 'exposed', the whole arguement shifts to legalism. Isn't sunday worship a form of legalism. Everyone does it and makes sure they go to church on sunday. If a person doesn't go on sunday then something is wrong with them.

Anyways, each of us have our particular views. I only brought up sunday bc the history of it is that it was forced into the church. Those devoted xians who saw it as a pagan day of worship, refused to worship G-d on sunday, but they were all murdered. Now years after their terribles deaths, the church as a whole observes sunday worship. Just as many here say that good xians should not be in glos bc they are blindly worshipping idols, the same can be said about what has happened within xianity itself. That was my only purpose in introducing sunday worship and the hebraic interpretations/english mistranslations of isaiah.

Dear Unity,

My whole point to you is that, if it were not for sin, none of these commandments about days, and sabbaths, and so forth would have ever been given.

If you focus on the relationship that God had with Adam, you will see that Adam and God talked and communed everyday. Adam didn't have any commandments about rituals, animal sacrifices, keeping sabbaths. Adam only had one commandment, don't eat from the tree in the center of the garden.

So my question to you is, why didn't God give Adam these commandments before He sinned? Why didn't Adam keep the sabbath with all its rules and laws about not touching this, or doing that?

I don't know who has a religious spirit. But DGS, I will respond with this. I do not in any way, shape, form or fashion blame God for my miscarriage. We live in a fallen world and things like that happen. It doesn't mean that God did it, but He allowed it. And through it came the opportunity to pray for a child of God and intercede for her little one.

And again, we live in a fallen world, so that's the deal with your question about Adam - Man had not sinned yet. But Man fell. The Messiah is even pointed out to Eve after the fall. God comforted Eve with a promise of Restoration, and Eve and all of God’s people after her looked forward to that Restoration in the Lord's promised one. Isaiah 53 is one of many Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah - that He would be the final blood atonement. But God knew this before the foundations of the earth and yes the Word says, "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him." God did not plan Jesus' human life, death and resurrection as He went. It was His eternal plan.

I really don't know what unity is talking about, and don't have time to go back and forth with someone who does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, so I pretty much don't read your posts - unity. You are not a scriptural point of reference for me. I understand that there is Jewish thought that goes with reading the Torah scriptures - but even orthodox Jewish thought can be divided.

And yes, sometimes it is God's plan for us to suffer for His namesake. In John 21 Jesus says to Peter
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go." 19 This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.

The "another" Jesus is referring to is the Holy Spirit and note "by what death he (Peter) was to glorify God.” – this was God’s PLAN!

Another reference:
John 9
1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. 4 We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6 As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man's eyes with the clay, 7 saying to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Silo'am" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing. 8 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar, said, "Is not this the man who used to sit and beg?"

The "religious Pharisee" spirit is the opposite of which you speak. It's one that looks to fatten its pockets off of the poor with false prophecies of wealth and prosperities. Jesus spoke many times of such as these. The above scripture is a great example of that.

Also another good scripture is:

Matthew 23
1 Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. 4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.

Who does this sound more like in this day and age? Ask yourself truthfully.

Another scripture about the “religious spirit” you speak

Mark 7
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

So, Pharisee spirits are the ones who spend a lot of time “looking good” to the world, but do not walk in the truth of God’s word. Pharisee Spirits are whitewashed tombstones. They might have a Bentley with spree-well spinners, the latest self help book on prosperity, and a House the size of Texas but on the inside they are dead. Not every wealthy Christian is like this and for those who have abundant wealth, may God bless them to be good stewards to further HIS Kingdom.
Amen.