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Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I would like you to take a few things and I would like to give you my perspective on this and then if it's wrong correct me then. I found this on a website I was looking through some stuff.



Our purpose as freemasons is not that of a religion. Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion. Freemasonry is not a religion nor is it a substitute for religion.

• Freemasonry advocates no sectarian faith or practise.
• We seek no converts.
• We solicit no new members.
• We raise no money for religious purposes.
• We have no dogma or theology. Religious discussion is forbidden in a masonic lodge thereby eliminating the chance for any masonic dogma to form.
• It offers no sacraments and does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with the modes of recognition only and not with the means of salvation.
• By any definition of religion accepted by our critics, we cannot qualify as a religion.
• Freemasonry supports religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practise, it expects each member to follow his own faith.

A man does not subscribe to a new religion, much less to an anti-Christian religion when he becomes a freemason, any more than when he joins any political party or community association. There is nothing in Freemasonry that is opposed to the religion he brings with him into the masonic lodge. Freemasonry does not assert nor does it teach that one religion is as good as another. Freemasonry admits men of all religions. Freemasons believe in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and his God is personal, private and sacred.

We do not apply a theological test to a candidate. We do ask a man if he believes in God and that is the only religious test. Belief in God is faith; belief about God is theology. As freemasons we are interested in faith only and not in theology. Religion is not permitted to be discussed at masonic meetings.

Freemasonry is a completely tolerant organization. When Freemasonry accepts a Christian, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or a Mohammedan, it does not accept him as such, but accepts him as a man, worthy to be received into the masonic fraternity.

Freemasonry stands for the values that are supreme in the life of the church and expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his duty to God above all other duties. We are sure that a member who is true to the principles he learns in Freemasonry will be a better church member because of it.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

The source of nearly all anti-masonic material relating to Freemasonry as being pagan evolves from the writings of Albert Pike and Dr. Albert Mackey, two American Freemasons who were devoted to the study of ancient mysteries and societies, Dr. Mackey being one of the most voluminous writers of his time. During their time they were looked upon as being scholars of their day but to a serious student of Freemasonry today they are more likely to be referred to as self-taught mystics and not the masonic authorities anti-masonic writers would like to have you believe.

Mackey and Pike embraced the ancient mysteries avidly. Pike’s Morals & Dogma, written in 1871, is given over to ancient paganism. Mackey in Masonic Ritualist, written in 1867, and Symbolism of Freemasonry, written in 1869, carried it not only to an absurd degree, but to an extent which can hardly be less than revolting to a Christian.

In order to properly interpret Mackey and Pike on paganism, one must understand that they entered the masonic fraternity in the 1840s, when masonic literature was at its height and both walked unsuspectingly into the circle of magism, paganism and occultism before they were properly seasoned in the history of the Craft. Those things that were indisputably Masonic, such as the Gothic Constitutions, the minutes of early lodges in the pre-Grand Lodge era, they ignored, but chose to follow irresponsible writers who were teaching doctrines neither then nor since approved or adopted by any Grand Lodge.

It is only fair to say that Mackey, in later years, made a retraction of his former paganistic doctrines. But that received nothing like the wide-spread publicity which had been accorded his former notions and certainly did not bar the sale and circulation of his books containing the repudiated material. It is improbable that Truth can ever keep up with Error, for there will always be those individuals who will prefer to quote Mackey as being an authoritarian source for Freemasons, failing to mention that this material was later retracted. Without the writings of Pike and Mackey, anti-masonic authors are left with little material of notoriety to formulate their startling allegations.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

"The first 'Official' use and definition of the all-seeing eye as a Masonic symbol seems to have come in 1797 with The Freemasons Monitor of Thomas Smith Webb -14 years after Congress adopted the design for the seal. Here's how Webb explains the symbol:

"And although our thoughts, words and actions, may be hidden from the eyes of man, yet that All-Seeing Eye, whom the Sun, Moon and Stars obey, and under whose watchful care even comets perform their stupendous revolutions, pervades the inmost recesses of the human heart, and will reward us according to our merits." *

Dr. Morris continues:

"Besides the subtly different interpretations of the symbol, it is notable that Webb did not describe the eye as being in a triangle. Jeremy Ladd Cross published The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor in 1819, essentially an illustrated version of Webb's Monitor." **

"In this first "official" depiction of Webb's symbol, Cross had illustrator Amos Doolittle depict the eye surrounded by a semicircular glory."

"The all-seeing eye thus appears to be a rather recent addition to Masonic symbolism. It is not found in any of the Gothic Constitutions, written from about 1390 to 1730. The eye - sometimes in a triangle, sometimes in clouds, but nearly always surrounded by a glory - was a popular Masonic decorative device in the latter half of the 18th century. Its use as a design element seems to have been an artistic representation of the omniscience of God, rather than some generally accepted Masonic symbol."

"Its meaning in all cases, however, was that commonly given it by society at large - a reminder of the constant presence of God. For example, in 1614 the frontispiece of The History of the World by Walter Raleigh showed an eye in a cloud labeled "Providentia" overlooking a globe. It has not been suggested that Raleigh's History is a Masonic document despite the use of the all-seeing eye."

"The eye of Providence was part of the common cultural iconography of the 17th and 18th centuries. When placed in a triangle, the eye went beyond a general representation of God to a strongly Trinitarian statement. It was during this period that Masonic ritual and symbolism evolved; and it is not surprising that many symbols common to and understood by the general society made their way into Masonic ceremonies. Masons may have preferred the triangle because of the frequent use of the number 3 in their ceremonies: three degrees, three original grand masters, three principal officers, and so on."

"Eventually the all-seeing eye came to be used officially by Masons as a symbol for God, but this happened towards the end of the eighteenth century, after congress had adopted the seal."

"A pyramid, whether incomplete or finished, however, has never been a Masonic symbol. It has no generally accepted symbolic meaning, except perhaps permanence or mystery. The combining of the eye of providence overlooking an unfinished pyramid is a uniquely American, not Masonic, icon, and must be interpreted as its designers intended. It has no Masonic context."


Dear Reader: Before sending us an e-mail raving about some example of what you think refutes what we've written here, could you PLEASE (please, please, please!!!!) try to understand that an Eye in a TRIANGLE is NOT an Eye in a PYRAMID! Let us repeat:
A PYRAMID is NOT the same thing as a TRIANGLE!

The eye in a triangle is a LONG established symbol of the all-seeing eye of Deity with the triangle often said to represent the three aspects of Deity of Christianity: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

That is why I am saying this doesn't make any sense.
I did an impartial anaylsis on

The Fatherhood of God and the Universal Brotherhood of Man

"Masonry is a Divinely appointed institution, designed to draw men nearer to God, to give them a clearer conception of their proper relationship to God as their Heavenly Father, to men as their brethren and the ultimate destiny of the human soul"


What I gather is this technically speaking they are correct Christians believe in God, Muslims, Judism, etc all believe in God now I can agree they might not believe in the same concept of God but technically they believe in God if you tell a Muslim they don't believe in God they be ready to fight you. What I gather what is the true nature is this that if a Muslim would tell a Christian to convert and being a Mason then that would cause that person to no longer be a Christian and effect their own enternal life. According to Muslims they believe that God had no son so they believe Christians are Idolters they believe in their hearts they are doing what is right by God the same way Christians know that only Jesus Christ can give enternal life. So by The Fatherhood of God and the Universal Brotherhood of Man is that they treat each person as if they are going to heaven because they have a relationship with their God/god in other words because the Christian believes in Jesus Christ and adknowledges Christ they will go to heaven with God because they are saved. Even if someone tried to witness to someone else they would still not necessarily get through to them so they would convert any way so even if a person could bring the name of Christ into whatever organization still wouldn't mean they would be able to witness because they still might not believe. So I don't think it has anything to do with that they really have a problem with the name of Jesus.



Also from what I read from the site I am being impartial when it comes to Bible verses I believe that they took these verses because of the fact that they do respect the Bible because it's clear from those rituals that they admired attributes of Brotherhood and Sisterhood from the Bible so I don't believe it is that they had no reverence to God. I believe that these organizations actually had so much love and respect for the Bible that is why they took those verses and was trying to show how the way members of their organizations should act according to the Bible. If not why not even use the Bible in the first place.


I also don't believe these organizations are trying to practice idoltry I am being impartial about this I believe they were taking certain attributes from different things to convey principles not to have these members worship anything else other then God and that even other organizations who don't use greek gods or goddess still use other symbols, animals etc to ingrain certain principles so it wasn't the symbols that mattered it was the attributes and principles they wanted these members to have.



Being unequally yoked when I looked up what that meant the history of it it only talked about Marriage or Business I can understand how it sounds like Marriage or Business but it's not.



I don't believe in the heart of these people because I think they would be going against God that they had intentions to do what is wrong by God when they created these organizations I really don't because their is no implication of intent to try to have members to not have a strong relationship with God.




I understand the arguements all of them that when people go through these rituals they are linked bond by these things they give spiritual grounds for demons but their is no proof of these things I am saying them in general and that is why I am saying that I just can't believe these organizations are evil like that because their is no proof of it no clear content to this I am not disagreeing that their could not be something wrong but their really is no proof that their is as well.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

What I don't get
I would like you to take a few things and I would like to give you my perspective on this and then if it's wrong correct me then. I found this on a website I was looking through some stuff.



Our purpose as freemasons is not that of a religion. Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion. Freemasonry is not a religion nor is it a substitute for religion.

• Freemasonry advocates no sectarian faith or practise.
• We seek no converts.
• We solicit no new members.
• We raise no money for religious purposes.
• We have no dogma or theology. Religious discussion is forbidden in a masonic lodge thereby eliminating the chance for any masonic dogma to form.
• It offers no sacraments and does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with the modes of recognition only and not with the means of salvation.
• By any definition of religion accepted by our critics, we cannot qualify as a religion.
• Freemasonry supports religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practise, it expects each member to follow his own faith.

A man does not subscribe to a new religion, much less to an anti-Christian religion when he becomes a freemason, any more than when he joins any political party or community association. There is nothing in Freemasonry that is opposed to the religion he brings with him into the masonic lodge. Freemasonry does not assert nor does it teach that one religion is as good as another. Freemasonry admits men of all religions. Freemasons believe in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and his God is personal, private and sacred.

We do not apply a theological test to a candidate. We do ask a man if he believes in God and that is the only religious test. Belief in God is faith; belief about God is theology. As freemasons we are interested in faith only and not in theology. Religion is not permitted to be discussed at masonic meetings.

Freemasonry is a completely tolerant organization. When Freemasonry accepts a Christian, or a Jew, or a Buddhist, or a Mohammedan, it does not accept him as such, but accepts him as a man, worthy to be received into the masonic fraternity.

Freemasonry stands for the values that are supreme in the life of the church and expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his duty to God above all other duties. We are sure that a member who is true to the principles he learns in Freemasonry will be a better church member because of it.




The facts say much more. I hope you nor they believe this foolishness.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Min H

Can you please post those facts because I would like to know both sides of the coin.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Min. H
www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.


http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=460887521&frmid=66&msgid=910988&cmd=show

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Min. H
Min. H
www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.


http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=460887521&frmid=66&msgid=910988&cmd=show




"You were presented with a lambskin or white leather apron, because the lamb, in all ages has been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin is therefore to remind you of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."

"The Lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. The lambskin is therefore to remind you of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to your gaining admission to that Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."

It continues,
"And when at last your weary feet shall have come to the end of life's toilsome journey, and from your nerveless grasp shall drop forever the working tools of life, may the record of your life and actions be as pure and spotless as this fair emblem which I place within your hands tonight; and when your trembling soul shall stand naked and alone before the Great White Throne, there to receive judgment for the deeds done while here in the body, may it be your portion to hear from Him who sitteth as the Judge Supreme the welcome words: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant! Thou has been faithful over a few things; I will make thee ruler over many things! Enter thou into the joy of Thy Lord."

Now I want you to read this and then go to the Holy Bible and ask yourself what is wrong with their teaching about the Great White Throne. But notice, not only a plan of salvation, but an assurance of it as well.

The plan is "purity of life and rectitude of conduct".

Another aspect of Freemasonry is, "A solemn purpose of Masonry is “to make good men better.”


Entered Apprentice Degree
****Howsoever men differ in creed or theology, all GOOD MEN are agreed that within the covers of the Holy Bible are found those principles of morality which lay the foundation upon which to build a righteous life.****


****Freemasonry takes all GOOD MEN by the hand, and leading them to its Altars, points to the open Bible thereon, and urges upon each that he faithfully direct his steps through life by the Light he there shall find, and as he there shall find it.****



****Truth is a divine attribute and the foundation of
every virtue. To be GOOD MEN and true is the first
lesson we are taught in Freemasonry.****


****If from our sacred altars the atheist, the infidel, the irreligious man, or the libertine****

This last quote is contradictory in and of itself. I will explain why later, unless you figure it out yourself

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Truth is absolute, so if Muslims do believe what they are commanded to believe about Jews and Christians, why the Muslim fellowship and be brothers with the Christian? It will always be the Christian who is asked to compromise his faith, to acquiesce. The Fatherhood of God says more than just a belief in God, it is that our God is the exact same. This is untrue. I was a Mason and know that this is what they meant. The Ritual states it that way as well.


"Freemasonry is far removed from all that is trivial,
selfish and ungodly. Its structure is built upon
the everlasting foundation of the God-given law -
the Brotherhood of Man, in the family whose
Father is God. Our ancient and honorable
Fraternity welcomes to its doors and admits to
its privileges worthy men of all creeds and of every
race, but insists that all men shall stand upon an
exact equality, and receive its instructions in a
spirit of due humility, emphasizing in demeanor,
in conduct, in ceremony and in language the
helpless, groping nature of man at his birth and
his need of reliance upon Divine guidance through
all the transactions of life."



Allah and Jesus are not the same God. One is the Creator and the other is not. Allah is not God, therefore, how can one say that Muslims believe in God? They think they believe in God, yet they are deceived, so no matter how sincere they are, or how much they want ot fight someone for saying otherwise doesn't change the truth.

Now I ask that all future communications be performed in a question and answer form, I believe the proof is clear within the first degree of Freemasonry what type of organization it is.

THE CLAIM THAT THEY ARE NOT A RELIGION HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER OR NOT IT IS GODLY OR THAT IT SHOULD BE OPPOSED ON A RELIGIOUS BASIS. THE BIBLICAL WORLDVIEW TRANSCENDS ALL AREAS OF LIFE, BOTH RELIGIOUS AND NON-RELIGIOUS.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Ok Question if the organization says it has a plan of salvation then why have the candidate express their religious beliefs why not just say hey don't believe in Christ or anything else if I was going to say not trying to have anyone believe in Christ I would say don't believe in anything but they stress belief in ones religion. You can't even join without belief in God.

Min. H
www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

What I don't get
Ok Question if the organization says it has a plan of salvation then why have the candidate express their religious beliefs why not just say hey don't believe in Christ or anything else if I was going to say not trying to have anyone believe in Christ I would say don't believe in anything but they stress belief in ones religion. You can't even join without belief in God.

Min. H
www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.



What's the difference? They do not believe that he is the only way so why discourage it? Rather by accepting all faiths as equal, you deny Jesus as the Truth, and deny His own words as truth. It's rather tricky and deceitful.


Based on the fact that Freemasonry has its OWN plan of salvation WITHOUT Jesus Christ is a DENIAL of Him in the first place. So by allowing the Christian to join is a slap in the face of Jesus.

You still bring up this belief in God requirement as if it something to be praised. Belief in which God. There can be only ONE; not one to this person and another to that person, but only one.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself.

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

What I don't get
http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself. 6

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.


Why did you not quote anyone's answer to this?

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

What I don't get
http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself.

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.


Now why did this man fail to quote what he was criticizing? And did you care to research what he was criticizing?
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/hiram.htm

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I am not saying it should be praised rather that ok if lets say Muslims were correct about their salvation if they listened to us even know I know Christianity is the true religion according to them Allah has no son so according to them lets just say for a sec they were right then first off we are about of Idol Worshipers correct.

Muslims, Mormons,Catholics, Jehovah Witness, Judism you are correct even though they are trying to do the right thing by God because they are searching clearly for the same God as us whether they realize it or not. Yes Jesus is God it's just they don't know that. However Muhammad,Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith lied to these people however they are searching for God. They are false religions that doesn't mean they are not trying to do the right thing by God. So that is why this is the case you have several different religions in these organizations. And they do believe they believe in God and technically they all are trying to follow the God of the Bible.






Min. H
What I don't get
Ok Question if the organization says it has a plan of salvation then why have the candidate express their religious beliefs why not just say hey don't believe in Christ or anything else if I was going to say not trying to have anyone believe in Christ I would say don't believe in anything but they stress belief in ones religion. You can't even join without belief in God.

Min. H
www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.



What's the difference? They do not believe that he is the only way so why discourage it? Rather by accepting all faiths as equal, you deny Jesus as the Truth, and deny His own words as truth. It's rather tricky and deceitful.


Based on the fact that Freemasonry has its OWN plan of salvation WITHOUT Jesus Christ is a DENIAL of Him in the first place. So by allowing the Christian to join is a slap in the face of Jesus.

You still bring up this belief in God requirement as if it something to be praised. Belief in which God. There can be only ONE; not one to this person and another to that person, but only one.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I will get back to this in a second but can a Savior also mean a Hero ? Can Hiram Abiff be a Hero in it's proper contexts if so then they are not stating that he is our savior or Masons savior because they have to have a belief in God in order to get to Heaven. They are stating because of his bravery and the type of character he holds to he is a Hero to the Masons and that Masons should follow this.


Min. H
What I don't get
http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself. 6

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.


Why did you not quote anyone's answer to this?

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Also it never states anywhere that Hiram died for the sins of the world so how can he be a savior of the world only Christ Jesus did that. Also when they talk about the Strong Grip of the Lion's Paw that he was raised by the True Lion of Juda Christ Jesus.


"Then, finally my brethren, let us
imitate our Grand Master, Hiram
Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his
unfeigned piety to God, and his
inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like
him, we may welcome the grim
tyrant, Death, and receive him as a
kind messenger sent by our
Supreme Grand Master, to translate
us from this imperfect to that allperfect,
glorious, and celestial
Lodge above, where the Supreme
Architect of the Universe presides."




Min. H
What I don't get
http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself.

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.


Now why did this man fail to quote what he was criticizing? And did you care to research what he was criticizing?
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/hiram.htm

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I know all about the Legend and how it goes that's why none of that stuff makes any sense its just a story about a Man who had secrets about his craft profession who would rather die than to give them up.


Min. H
What I don't get
http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself.

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.


Now why did this man fail to quote what he was criticizing? And did you care to research what he was criticizing?
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/hiram.htm

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Bottom line, masonry teaches a plan of salvation that does not go through Jesus Christ. If you would like to further discuss, 919/278-8911

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Min. H
Bottom line, masonry teaches a plan of salvation that does not go through Jesus Christ. If you would like to further discuss, 919/278-8911




http://rsmasons.org/archives/lsome/chap1.htm


I would like your feed back on this Min. H he talks about the misconception of the Legend of Hiram Abiff, Albert Pike, and Jahbulon and what it truly means the name of God so I wanted your feed back on this Art deHoyos and S. Brent Morris claim that their are a lot of misconceptions about Masonary.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

What I don't get
Min. H
Bottom line, masonry teaches a plan of salvation that does not go through Jesus Christ. If you would like to further discuss, 919/278-8911




http://rsmasons.org/archives/lsome/chap1.htm


I would like your feed back on this Min. H he talks about the misconception of the Legend of Hiram Abiff, Albert Pike, and Jahbulon and what it truly means the name of God so I wanted your feed back on this Art deHoyos and S. Brent Morris claim that their are a lot of misconceptions about Masonary.




I am unconcerned about Pike. He is not an official source of Masonic Doctrine. There may be misconceptions, no doubt. But I was a Mason long enough to know there was something wrong, and that's coming from one who was still an unbeliever at the time.

Concerning Brent Morris' comments about Hiram not being raised from the dead, the Fatherhood of God, the Universal Brotherhood of Man, and Masonry having no plan of salvation; I disagree with them all. He is being so disingenuous by playing on the obvious ignorance of non-masons. WHY DID HE NOT QUOTE ONE SINGLE STRAND OF RITUAL TO PROVE HIS POINTS. THIS IS TYPICAL OF ALMOST ALL WHO BELONG TO FREEMASONRY, INCLUDING CHRISTIANS.

Now Morris himself claims to be a Christian, but is more concerned about keeping his Fraternity's secrets than revealing information that can prove his points.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I don't want to argue I just want to get your feedback I came across this. You spoke about this before about the Lodge facing the East.


http://forum.mastermason.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8467


Countering Sun Worship Charge Against Masonry

I was wondering how to counter the antimasonic charge that masonry is sun worship, and that the sun is a symbol of Lucifer.

They like to use Ezekiel 8:16 in defense of this claim:
And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

If you read this verse in context it appears that worshipping the sun is the highest form of abomination toward the God of Israel. I believe in the Scottish Rite 4th degree you are made to promise not to worship the heavenly bodies, and Albert Pike said once in Morals and Dogma that the symbols of the wise become the idols of the vulgar. However, how do we explain that our lodges are oriented exactly opposite the way the temple should be, and that we kneel facing the east? From this verse should we be facing the west, or am I missing something here?

Any explanation you guys have would be appreciated, this is something that has me and some other people stumped. How do we deal with this verse in Ezekiel?
Brian

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?

I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.


droche wrote:

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?

I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.
Oh, I was under the impression it was facing west. Was the orientation changed in Ezekiel's time? Anyone know more?

Brother bjw,

The fact that we face East should never be unaccompanied by the fact that:
this is only done when taking our Obligation
there is no EASTERN OPENING to see the sun and
that immediately to our EAST is the VoSL (AKA HOLY BIBLE!) when facing EAST during that Obligation
The only way to counter their charge is to laugh and walk away. They have already made up their minds and your interest in changing their minds is their leverage to dirty you further in their eyes.

Give neither pearls to swine nor sacred things to dogs.

BTW - We do Travel East. This means we seek further Light (Truth), not further darkness! The metaphor will not be understood by any anti. Figures of speech are only comprehended by them when it doesn't conflict with what they have already concluded to be their truth..

IMO

Bro. Coach N

You are missing something there .... In the Ezekiel 8:16 it states ... "with their backs toward the temple of the Lord" ... those 25 turned their backs to the Lord and worshiped the sun. .... The sun rises in the East, so the 25 had to face East to worship the sun. ... East itself has nothing to do with showing "abomination toward the God of Israel". ... One faces the direction necessary to face & worship his Deity. During the time of King Solomon & Ezekiel one faced the "Temple of the Lord", be it North South, West or East. That was where the Spirit of the Lord was until the destruction.

The Temple was built East & West with the Holy of Hollies in the East end. One entered from the West. The layout and dimensions were given to King David by God and was to be built by King Solomon. .... This is clearly stated in the Bible. ... So our Masonic Lodges symbolically facing East has nothing to do with the worship of the sun.



Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The first lesson of Freemasonry is to "think for your self".


The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.


canuck wrote:

The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
These verses are excellent, thanks! I'll definitely use these when this comes up.

As for what Hiram Abiff said, I've noticed this too. Some of the same people that criticize us don't realize they honor holidays that were originally pagan and have some pagan traditions. Even the church day "Sunday" has a reference to the sun.
Brian

I would DEFINITELY NOT use this as an argument...
In this, as in every other discussion regarding masonry and religion - oppose their views simply by using the words of the Bible (or the respective Holy Book). That is something that can not be disputed by them. If you try to use any other logic, besides what is directly said in the Bible - you will end up "loosing" the argument, because they will blame you for diverting from the "Word of God". Instad - use the Word of God, to explain them why they are wrong.







Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Min. H
I am only going to reply to the important stuff here.



Countering Sun Worship Charge Against Masonry

I was wondering how to counter the antimasonic charge that masonry is sun worship, and that the sun is a symbol of Lucifer.

They like to use Ezekiel 8:16 in defense of this claim:
And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

If you read this verse in context it appears that worshipping the sun is the highest form of abomination toward the God of Israel. I believe in the Scottish Rite 4th degree you are made to promise not to worship the heavenly bodies, and Albert Pike said once in Morals and Dogma that the symbols of the wise become the idols of the vulgar. However, how do we explain that our lodges are oriented exactly opposite the way the temple should be, and that we kneel facing the east? From this verse should we be facing the west, or am I missing something here?

Any explanation you guys have would be appreciated, this is something that has me and some other people stumped. How do we deal with this verse in Ezekiel?
Brian

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?

I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.


Min. H
Yes this person is missing the fact that they were not just worshipping the sun, but an idol god, as many pagan gods were the sun. Facing east is the issue, because not only were they turning their backs to God ON PURPOSE, the Masons top symbol is King Solomon's Temple. Much of their teaching and doctrine centers around the building of this temple; so how has FM gone soooooooo long with this error? They have used many scriptures in error. The god of freeamsonry itself is a pagan god named the great Architect Of The Universe (GAOTU). In the Eastern Side of their lodges, their is a picture of the sun with a face. You know, the one we see in a lot of symbols.

So the issue is not if the FOUNDERS of freemasonry (which is who by the way?) purposely used Ezekiel 8:16 or not to design their lodges, but the fact that they claim KS Temple as the building block of their fraternity being built in the exact opposite way of the actual temple. Almost everything in terms of a Mason's actions all have to do with facing the EAST. Their entry into the lodge, approaching the ALTAR, placing your hands on the Bible nd swearing your obligations, performing their signs and duegards (Sp.), approaching the Worshipful Master, etc.

droche wrote:

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?


Min. H
The Door to the temple was on the East Side.



I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.
Oh, I was under the impression it was facing west. Was the orientation changed in Ezekiel's time? Anyone know more?

Brother bjw,

The fact that we face East should never be unaccompanied by the fact that:
this is only done when taking our Obligation
there is no EASTERN OPENING to see the sun and
that immediately to our EAST is the VoSL (AKA HOLY BIBLE!) when facing EAST during that Obligation
The only way to counter their charge is to laugh and walk away. They have already made up their minds and your interest in changing their minds is their leverage to dirty you further in their eyes.

Give neither pearls to swine nor sacred things to dogs.



Min. H
I agree and Freemasonry is the fattest of all pigs. The only reason you do not see any light is because lodges don't allow anyone to see insdie from the outside.


BTW - We do Travel East. This means we seek further Light (Truth), not further darkness! The metaphor will not be understood by any anti. Figures of speech are only comprehended by them when it doesn't conflict with what they have already concluded to be their truth..

IMO


Min. H
The truth of Freemasonry is RELATIVE. Freemasonry seeks MANY TRUTHS and MANY DIFFERENT BELIEFS.


Bro. Coach N

You are missing something there .... In the Ezekiel 8:16 it states ... "with their backs toward the temple of the Lord" ... those 25 turned their backs to the Lord and worshiped the sun. .... The sun rises in the East, so the 25 had to face East to worship the sun. ... East itself has nothing to do with showing "abomination toward the God of Israel". ... One faces the direction necessary to face & worship his Deity. During the time of King Solomon & Ezekiel one faced the "Temple of the Lord", be it North South, West or East. That was where the Spirit of the Lord was until the destruction.



Min. H
This statement here proves mine immediately above.... "WORSHIP HIS DEITY" WELL WHO IS THAT DEITY???????????????



The Temple was built East & West with the Holy of Hollies in the East end. One entered from the West. The layout and dimensions were given to King David by God and was to be built by King Solomon. .... This is clearly stated in the Bible. ... So our Masonic Lodges symbolically facing East has nothing to do with the worship of the sun.

MIN. H
DISAGREE



Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The first lesson of Freemasonry is to "think for your self".


MIN. H
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY????? So if you think fornication is okay, I guess it's okay. I mean, FREEMASONRY promotes fornication as long as it's not a close relative of another Mason?????????




The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.


canuck wrote:

The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
These verses are excellent, thanks! I'll definitely use these when this comes up.

As for what Hiram Abiff said, I've noticed this too. Some of the same people that criticize us don't realize they honor holidays that were originally pagan and have some pagan traditions. Even the church day "Sunday" has a reference to the sun.
Brian

I would DEFINITELY NOT use this as an argument...
In this, as in every other discussion regarding masonry and religion - oppose their views simply by using the words of the Bible (or the respective Holy Book). That is something that can not be disputed by them. If you try to use any other logic, besides what is directly said in the Bible - you will end up "loosing" the argument, because they will blame you for diverting from the "Word of God". Instad - use the Word of God, to explain them why they are wrong.



Min. H
OR THE RESPECTIVE HOLY BOOK. WHAT??????????

It does not matter what you use. You can show them clearly how scripture is misused. The human mind can justify anything.