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Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I know all about the Legend and how it goes that's why none of that stuff makes any sense its just a story about a Man who had secrets about his craft profession who would rather die than to give them up.


Min. H
What I don't get
http://catholicmason.hubpages.com/hub/Blasphemous-works-of-Ephisians-5-11org

By CatholicMason

Proverbs 26:28
I was performing some research on Hiram and came across the website: Eph 5-11.org Where I am aware that this site is quite strongly anti-Masonic in nature, I also noticed that there is a strongly inferred inaccuracy within. There it states that "...the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff..." is incorrect. Nowhere in any of the Masonic rituals, that I have studied through, does any of them mention the "resurrection" of Hiram Abiff. Yes it does say that his body is dug up and reburied closer to Solomons Temple, but nothing about him defeating death itself.

I have spoken with many Freemasons, from various countries across the globe (Americas, Europe, Australasia), and none of them have ever heard of any alleged resurrection of Hiram's father in any of their degrees.


Now why did this man fail to quote what he was criticizing? And did you care to research what he was criticizing?
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/hiram.htm

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I am not saying it should be praised rather that ok if lets say Muslims were correct about their salvation if they listened to us even know I know Christianity is the true religion according to them Allah has no son so according to them lets just say for a sec they were right then first off we are about of Idol Worshipers correct.

Muslims, Mormons,Catholics, Jehovah Witness, Judism you are correct even though they are trying to do the right thing by God because they are searching clearly for the same God as us whether they realize it or not. Yes Jesus is God it's just they don't know that. However Muhammad,Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith lied to these people however they are searching for God. They are false religions that doesn't mean they are not trying to do the right thing by God. So that is why this is the case you have several different religions in these organizations. And they do believe they believe in God and technically they all are trying to follow the God of the Bible.






Min. H
What I don't get
Ok Question if the organization says it has a plan of salvation then why have the candidate express their religious beliefs why not just say hey don't believe in Christ or anything else if I was going to say not trying to have anyone believe in Christ I would say don't believe in anything but they stress belief in ones religion. You can't even join without belief in God.

Min. H
www.ephesians5-11.org

My own ritual as well. They have a plan of salvation. What other organizations that are Non-Religious in nature have a plan of salvation?

I challenge you to post those facts, some of which are already posted somewhere in the forums.



What's the difference? They do not believe that he is the only way so why discourage it? Rather by accepting all faiths as equal, you deny Jesus as the Truth, and deny His own words as truth. It's rather tricky and deceitful.


Based on the fact that Freemasonry has its OWN plan of salvation WITHOUT Jesus Christ is a DENIAL of Him in the first place. So by allowing the Christian to join is a slap in the face of Jesus.

You still bring up this belief in God requirement as if it something to be praised. Belief in which God. There can be only ONE; not one to this person and another to that person, but only one.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

What I don't get
Min. H
Bottom line, masonry teaches a plan of salvation that does not go through Jesus Christ. If you would like to further discuss, 919/278-8911




http://rsmasons.org/archives/lsome/chap1.htm


I would like your feed back on this Min. H he talks about the misconception of the Legend of Hiram Abiff, Albert Pike, and Jahbulon and what it truly means the name of God so I wanted your feed back on this Art deHoyos and S. Brent Morris claim that their are a lot of misconceptions about Masonary.




I am unconcerned about Pike. He is not an official source of Masonic Doctrine. There may be misconceptions, no doubt. But I was a Mason long enough to know there was something wrong, and that's coming from one who was still an unbeliever at the time.

Concerning Brent Morris' comments about Hiram not being raised from the dead, the Fatherhood of God, the Universal Brotherhood of Man, and Masonry having no plan of salvation; I disagree with them all. He is being so disingenuous by playing on the obvious ignorance of non-masons. WHY DID HE NOT QUOTE ONE SINGLE STRAND OF RITUAL TO PROVE HIS POINTS. THIS IS TYPICAL OF ALMOST ALL WHO BELONG TO FREEMASONRY, INCLUDING CHRISTIANS.

Now Morris himself claims to be a Christian, but is more concerned about keeping his Fraternity's secrets than revealing information that can prove his points.

Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

I don't want to argue I just want to get your feedback I came across this. You spoke about this before about the Lodge facing the East.


http://forum.mastermason.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8467


Countering Sun Worship Charge Against Masonry

I was wondering how to counter the antimasonic charge that masonry is sun worship, and that the sun is a symbol of Lucifer.

They like to use Ezekiel 8:16 in defense of this claim:
And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

If you read this verse in context it appears that worshipping the sun is the highest form of abomination toward the God of Israel. I believe in the Scottish Rite 4th degree you are made to promise not to worship the heavenly bodies, and Albert Pike said once in Morals and Dogma that the symbols of the wise become the idols of the vulgar. However, how do we explain that our lodges are oriented exactly opposite the way the temple should be, and that we kneel facing the east? From this verse should we be facing the west, or am I missing something here?

Any explanation you guys have would be appreciated, this is something that has me and some other people stumped. How do we deal with this verse in Ezekiel?
Brian

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?

I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.


droche wrote:

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?

I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.
Oh, I was under the impression it was facing west. Was the orientation changed in Ezekiel's time? Anyone know more?

Brother bjw,

The fact that we face East should never be unaccompanied by the fact that:
this is only done when taking our Obligation
there is no EASTERN OPENING to see the sun and
that immediately to our EAST is the VoSL (AKA HOLY BIBLE!) when facing EAST during that Obligation
The only way to counter their charge is to laugh and walk away. They have already made up their minds and your interest in changing their minds is their leverage to dirty you further in their eyes.

Give neither pearls to swine nor sacred things to dogs.

BTW - We do Travel East. This means we seek further Light (Truth), not further darkness! The metaphor will not be understood by any anti. Figures of speech are only comprehended by them when it doesn't conflict with what they have already concluded to be their truth..

IMO

Bro. Coach N

You are missing something there .... In the Ezekiel 8:16 it states ... "with their backs toward the temple of the Lord" ... those 25 turned their backs to the Lord and worshiped the sun. .... The sun rises in the East, so the 25 had to face East to worship the sun. ... East itself has nothing to do with showing "abomination toward the God of Israel". ... One faces the direction necessary to face & worship his Deity. During the time of King Solomon & Ezekiel one faced the "Temple of the Lord", be it North South, West or East. That was where the Spirit of the Lord was until the destruction.

The Temple was built East & West with the Holy of Hollies in the East end. One entered from the West. The layout and dimensions were given to King David by God and was to be built by King Solomon. .... This is clearly stated in the Bible. ... So our Masonic Lodges symbolically facing East has nothing to do with the worship of the sun.



Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The first lesson of Freemasonry is to "think for your self".


The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.


canuck wrote:

The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
These verses are excellent, thanks! I'll definitely use these when this comes up.

As for what Hiram Abiff said, I've noticed this too. Some of the same people that criticize us don't realize they honor holidays that were originally pagan and have some pagan traditions. Even the church day "Sunday" has a reference to the sun.
Brian

I would DEFINITELY NOT use this as an argument...
In this, as in every other discussion regarding masonry and religion - oppose their views simply by using the words of the Bible (or the respective Holy Book). That is something that can not be disputed by them. If you try to use any other logic, besides what is directly said in the Bible - you will end up "loosing" the argument, because they will blame you for diverting from the "Word of God". Instad - use the Word of God, to explain them why they are wrong.







Re: If Nimrod is Baal and also Baphomet is Baal then how can a Man be a Demon

Min. H
I am only going to reply to the important stuff here.



Countering Sun Worship Charge Against Masonry

I was wondering how to counter the antimasonic charge that masonry is sun worship, and that the sun is a symbol of Lucifer.

They like to use Ezekiel 8:16 in defense of this claim:
And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.

If you read this verse in context it appears that worshipping the sun is the highest form of abomination toward the God of Israel. I believe in the Scottish Rite 4th degree you are made to promise not to worship the heavenly bodies, and Albert Pike said once in Morals and Dogma that the symbols of the wise become the idols of the vulgar. However, how do we explain that our lodges are oriented exactly opposite the way the temple should be, and that we kneel facing the east? From this verse should we be facing the west, or am I missing something here?

Any explanation you guys have would be appreciated, this is something that has me and some other people stumped. How do we deal with this verse in Ezekiel?
Brian

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?

I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.


Min. H
Yes this person is missing the fact that they were not just worshipping the sun, but an idol god, as many pagan gods were the sun. Facing east is the issue, because not only were they turning their backs to God ON PURPOSE, the Masons top symbol is King Solomon's Temple. Much of their teaching and doctrine centers around the building of this temple; so how has FM gone soooooooo long with this error? They have used many scriptures in error. The god of freeamsonry itself is a pagan god named the great Architect Of The Universe (GAOTU). In the Eastern Side of their lodges, their is a picture of the sun with a face. You know, the one we see in a lot of symbols.

So the issue is not if the FOUNDERS of freemasonry (which is who by the way?) purposely used Ezekiel 8:16 or not to design their lodges, but the fact that they claim KS Temple as the building block of their fraternity being built in the exact opposite way of the actual temple. Almost everything in terms of a Mason's actions all have to do with facing the EAST. Their entry into the lodge, approaching the ALTAR, placing your hands on the Bible nd swearing your obligations, performing their signs and duegards (Sp.), approaching the Worshipful Master, etc.

droche wrote:

How do we explain that our Lodges are oriented exactly the opposite the way the temple should be? King Solomon's Temple faced east. Even non-Masonic sources say that, so why do you think that the temple should face to the west?


Min. H
The Door to the temple was on the East Side.



I am not familiar with the verse in Ezekiel but from what you quoted it would seem to me that the abomination being committed is worshipping the sun, not that the worshippers are facing east. Or maybe I am missing somethiing.
Oh, I was under the impression it was facing west. Was the orientation changed in Ezekiel's time? Anyone know more?

Brother bjw,

The fact that we face East should never be unaccompanied by the fact that:
this is only done when taking our Obligation
there is no EASTERN OPENING to see the sun and
that immediately to our EAST is the VoSL (AKA HOLY BIBLE!) when facing EAST during that Obligation
The only way to counter their charge is to laugh and walk away. They have already made up their minds and your interest in changing their minds is their leverage to dirty you further in their eyes.

Give neither pearls to swine nor sacred things to dogs.



Min. H
I agree and Freemasonry is the fattest of all pigs. The only reason you do not see any light is because lodges don't allow anyone to see insdie from the outside.


BTW - We do Travel East. This means we seek further Light (Truth), not further darkness! The metaphor will not be understood by any anti. Figures of speech are only comprehended by them when it doesn't conflict with what they have already concluded to be their truth..

IMO


Min. H
The truth of Freemasonry is RELATIVE. Freemasonry seeks MANY TRUTHS and MANY DIFFERENT BELIEFS.


Bro. Coach N

You are missing something there .... In the Ezekiel 8:16 it states ... "with their backs toward the temple of the Lord" ... those 25 turned their backs to the Lord and worshiped the sun. .... The sun rises in the East, so the 25 had to face East to worship the sun. ... East itself has nothing to do with showing "abomination toward the God of Israel". ... One faces the direction necessary to face & worship his Deity. During the time of King Solomon & Ezekiel one faced the "Temple of the Lord", be it North South, West or East. That was where the Spirit of the Lord was until the destruction.



Min. H
This statement here proves mine immediately above.... "WORSHIP HIS DEITY" WELL WHO IS THAT DEITY???????????????



The Temple was built East & West with the Holy of Hollies in the East end. One entered from the West. The layout and dimensions were given to King David by God and was to be built by King Solomon. .... This is clearly stated in the Bible. ... So our Masonic Lodges symbolically facing East has nothing to do with the worship of the sun.

MIN. H
DISAGREE



Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The first lesson of Freemasonry is to "think for your self".


MIN. H
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY????? So if you think fornication is okay, I guess it's okay. I mean, FREEMASONRY promotes fornication as long as it's not a close relative of another Mason?????????




The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.


canuck wrote:

The Holy of the Hollies was in the East part of the Temple. In the Orthodox Churches today, the Alter is in the East.
As for the "sun worship", quote them the following:
Isaiah 59:19
From the west, men will fear the name of the LORD, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

Or even better:
Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
These verses are excellent, thanks! I'll definitely use these when this comes up.

As for what Hiram Abiff said, I've noticed this too. Some of the same people that criticize us don't realize they honor holidays that were originally pagan and have some pagan traditions. Even the church day "Sunday" has a reference to the sun.
Brian

I would DEFINITELY NOT use this as an argument...
In this, as in every other discussion regarding masonry and religion - oppose their views simply by using the words of the Bible (or the respective Holy Book). That is something that can not be disputed by them. If you try to use any other logic, besides what is directly said in the Bible - you will end up "loosing" the argument, because they will blame you for diverting from the "Word of God". Instad - use the Word of God, to explain them why they are wrong.



Min. H
OR THE RESPECTIVE HOLY BOOK. WHAT??????????

It does not matter what you use. You can show them clearly how scripture is misused. The human mind can justify anything.