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This section is dedicated to the real robbers. First, I will show the basis of why tithing is not required in the New Testament based on personal study and meditation of scripture. Then I will either add links or actual articles both for and against tithing in the church today. I believe the truth of scripture will reign over church tradition. After the next post, and some thereafter, I will list all Pastors I know and have confronted who claim that tithing is mandatory, especially to work in the church. I give people 2-3 weeks to respond to an e-mail. After this, I will assume that I am being swatted away like some gnat in the ear.
When a Pastor asks people to join his church, and tells them they will be able to use their gifts, but does not give the conditions first, IS WORSE THAN SOMEONE ASKING YOU TO SWEAR A BLIND OATH TO A GREEK ORGANIZATION. Why? because it's the Body of Christ for one, and because the Pastor is simply trying to bind you up, and make sure that the money will continue to flow. It's even worse when the conditions are not founded upon Biblical Truth.
But what happens when that one member challenges the STATUS QUO? I'll tell you what happens; ALL OUT WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't get me wrong, I do believe it takes money to run a ministry, but not to pay for somoeone else's vision.
A quick change to my opening statement. If you have a pastor that espouses this belief, feel free to use all the information you have here for your pastor, or anyone else. I have decided at this point to only name certain persons, but not just yet.
NOW MY EXPLANATIONS ARE GOING TO ELEMENTARY AND PRACTICAL. I am leaving the deep stuff for the links.
PRE-LAW TITHING or GIVING A TENTH
1And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
2That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
3All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
4Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
5And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emins in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
6And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is by the wilderness.
7And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.
8And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;
9With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
10And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
11And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
12And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
13And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
14And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
15And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
16And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
This whole chapter was needed to layout the context. Many preachers use this to say that believers must tithe today. If you took that one verse, which is usually the case with pro-tithers, then I would be cool with it. This would mean that if tithe was from my income, I would only have to pay a ONE-TIME TITHE FOR LIFE. Nowhere else do we see Abraham paying tithes ever again.
But if one takes the scripture in its context, Abraham did not tithe his INCOME, but payed tithes on the recovered goods of the kings and Lot (i.e. THE STUFF WAS NOT EVEN HIS IN THE FIRST PLACE).
So if one wants to make Abraham's tithe the pre-law precedence to believers paying tithes; pastors, go and tell your people to gather up other people's money that someone else took, give 10% to you, and the other 90% back to its rightful owners.
The best modern day example mixed with folklore to do this would be to find a Robinhood, have him find the lottery winners (those who benefit off of other people's money), take their money, return it back to the lottery players (gamblers) with a 10% tax, which went to Robinhood's pastor.
1And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
2Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughers of Laban thy mother's brother.
3And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
4And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
5And Isaac sent away Jacob: and he went to Padanaram unto Laban, son of Bethuel the Syrian, the brother of Rebekah, Jacob's and Esau's mother.
6When Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob, and sent him away to Padanaram, to take him a wife from thence; and that as he blessed him he gave him a charge, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughers of Canaan;
7And that Jacob obeyed his father and his mother, and was gone to Padanaram;
8And Esau seeing that the daughters of Canaan pleased not Isaac his father;
9Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife.
10And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.
11And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
18And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
19And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
20And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
This one's a fairly easy one. Verse 22 is the only place where a tenth is mentioned. But Jacob's vow is more like a bargain, IF GOD DOES, THE JACOB WILL DO. Did God provide for Jacob, Yes He did; Do we have record of Jacob ever paying a tenth to God, NO WE DON'T.
Now I suggest, you have your Pastor explain this to you.
The best case scenario for PRE-LAW TITHING DOCTRINE, REJECTING ALL CONTEXT, WOULD BE A ONE-TIME TITHE ON YOUR (NOT SOMEONE ELSES') INCOME AT ONE TIME IN YOUR LIFE.
IF THIS WERE THE CASE, BEEN THERE DONE THAT, AND WOULD BE WILLING TO DO IT AGAIN.
CAN I LET YOU IN ON A SECRET? Tithing PRE-ceeded Abraham (i.e. it was already being done.)
I must first start this whole section off with ONE KEY PIECE OF INFORMATION. Nowhere in the Law that the Lord commanded, was MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ever used to PAY TITHES. Now what Pastors and other Christians will say, WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE, OR DESIRE TO FIND, AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME THAT TITHING LIVESTOCK and CROPS changed to MONEY. They also make the unwise and foolish assumption that either all Jews farmed and raised livestock, and had no jobs where they made money. I was once this unwise fool. I knew something was wrong, but I could not put my finger on it. But now that I have, I believe all need to know. It angers me to see how many Pastors will ignore the obvious, and for what? MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$
30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. 32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
33He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
34These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
24But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
25And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
26Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
27And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.
28Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.
29Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.
30Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.
31And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.
32And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die.
I see no mention of that thing called, MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Another startling revelation; THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD IS NO LONGER IN EXISTENCE. It was replaced by a greater and completely different Priesthood and Priest, Jesus Christ.
LAW TITIHNG CONTINUED
5But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
6And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
7And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.
8Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.
9For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.
10But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:
12And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
13Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:
14But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.
15Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.
16Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.
17Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
18But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.
19Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.
20When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.
21If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.
Again, we do not see MONEY$$$$$$$$ as a tithing commodity. Where did the switch occur from livestock to money? Can ANYONE show me?
Next Scripture, Uh Oh! Something changes..........
LAW TITHING CONTINUED
22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
There are 3 things to be noticed here, and I had to re-read to be sure of its contents.
1.) All other tithes prior to this tithe was paid to the Levites ONLY for they had no inheritance. But this tithe is different in nature. This was a tithe for the people to enjoy. It is what is called a festival tithe.
2.) In this section of scripture, WE SEE MONEY$$$$$. But notice the purpose and the avenue to obtain money. To ease the burden of the trip, and to use it for the festival activities. So we see again that money was actually given for animals (real tithing commodity). Money was given to ease the burden, not create one, as MODERN DAY TITHING DOES TODAY.
3.) We also have another tithe mentioned here. A tithe to be brought for the poor, the levite, the fatherless, etc. EVERY 3 YEARS. Well 10% over 3 years is 3.3% per year.
IN CONCLUSION, IF PASTORS WANT TO PUSH THIS ISSUE OF TITHING, 23.3% PER YEAR IS THE AMOUNT, excluding the year of Jubilee. UH OH!!!!!!!!! YOU DON'T SEE ANY PRO-TITHING PASTORS PREACHING THIS TO THEIR CONGREGATION. A YEAR OF NO TITHING, WHAT????????? ARE YOU CRAZY? NOW LET PASTORS PUSH THAT 23.3% ENVELOPE ON THEIR SHEEP.
11And thou shalt rejoice in every good thing which the LORD thy God hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you.
12When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
13Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them.
Now I want to pause here a moment to see what and who tithing was for. The Levite within your gates, the widow, the fatherless, and the stranger. Well, we all know the Levitical Priesthood is no more!!!!!!!!!! This leaves the other category of people. How often to we see TITHE-MONGERING PREACHERS reaching out to these people? How many widows in the church are receiving the benefits of their own tithes and offerings to their own church? The church is no different than the Government. TITHATION without representation!!!!!!!!!!!!! tHE CURRENT PROSPERITY GOSPEL FOCUSES ON KEEPING THE MAND OF GOD RICH, NOT HELPING THE DOWNTRODDEN OF OUR SOCIETY.
II Chronicles 31
1Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.
2And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the LORD.
3He appointed also the king's portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD.
4Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the LORD.
5And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
6And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.
Now here we have same formula different time period. Notice how no MONEY is being used to pay tithes. Now what I have found to be interesting is how preachers want to only carry over tithing, change it from non-monetary items to MONEY, but not allow people to bring oil (olive) and corn to church. What's the problem? THE LOVE OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!! TITHE-MONGERING PASTORS don't want corn and oil. If Pastors want the tithing, why not the burnt offerings as well. Why leave that behind? I'll tell you why; the only thing to burn would be money, because nothing else is given.
11Then Hezekiah commanded to prepare chambers in the house of the LORD; and they prepared them,
12And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next.
13And Jehiel, and Azaziah, and Nahath, and Asahel, and Jerimoth, and Jozabad, and Eliel, and Ismachiah, and Mahath, and Benaiah, were overseers under the hand of Cononiah and Shimei his brother, at the commandment of Hezekiah the king, and Azariah the ruler of the house of God.
Uh Oh! Hezekiah is building some chambers. So what is supposed to go in these chambers or "STOREHOUSES"? Well preachers have MADE churches into storehouses. This is a most foolish analogy. Synagogues were similar to today's churches, not the chambers or the storehouses. TITHE-MONGERERS WILL DO ANYTHING TO DECIEVE YOU TO GET THAT MONEY, EVEN DECEIVING THEMSELVES.
I have only given the most practical hands on application to deal with TITHE-MONGERING PASTORS. I honestly believe that some, if not many, are even aware that tithing has no place in the church today. They are simply following what they have heard. It is still no excuse for the pastor. A lay person from time-to-time may need to address his or her pastor on theology, but the pastor is the one who sould be attending most to scripture, not the voices of others.
28And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;
29They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;
30And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, not take their daughters for our sons:
31And if the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, that we would not buy it of them on the sabbath, or on the holy day: and that we would leave the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt.
32Also we made ordinances for us, to charge ourselves yearly with the third part of a shekel for the service of the house of our God;
33For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.
34And we cast the lots among the priests, the Levites, and the people, for the wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God, after the houses of our fathers, at times appointed year by year, to burn upon the altar of the LORD our God, as it is written in the law:
35And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD:
36Also the firstborn of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the firstlings of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, unto the priests that minister in the house of our God:
37And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
38And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.
39For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.
New Book, New Scripture, SAME LAW! Of all the language surrounding tithes, we do not see MONEY mentioned ONCE. Tithes from the ground, from the tillage!
43Also that day they offered great sacrifices, and rejoiced: for God had made them rejoice with great joy: the wives also and the children rejoiced: so that the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off.
44And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited.
45And both the singers and the porters kept the ward of their God, and the ward of the purification, according to the commandment of David, and of Solomon his son.
To gather them out of the fields. NOW HOW MANY READING THIS HAS HEARD THE SAYING, "MONEY DOESN'T GROW ON TREES"? WELL TITHES DID GROW ON TREES, MONEY STILL DOES NOT.
5And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.
6But in all this time was not I at Jerusalem: for in the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes king of Babylon came I unto the king, and after certain days obtained I leave of the king:
7And I came to Jerusalem, and understood of the evil that Eliashib did for Tobiah, in preparing him a chamber in the courts of the house of God.
8And it grieved me sore: therefore I cast forth all the household stuff to Tobiah out of the chamber.
9Then I commanded, and they cleansed the chambers: and thither brought I again the vessels of the house of God, with the meat offering and the frankincense.
10And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.
11Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place.
12Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
13And I made treasurers over the treasuries, Shelemiah the priest, and Zadok the scribe, and of the Levites, Pedaiah: and next to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah: for they were counted faithful, and their office was to distribute unto their brethren.
Judah brought tithes of what? Scripture seems to be repeating itself over and over again. Tithes to the pastors are like fossils are to the evolutionist movement. No transition from one thing to the next exists. Pastors claim tithes of the NON-MONETARY GOODS changed over to money. Evolutionists claim that certain animals slowly changed (TRANSITIONED) into other animals, BUT NO TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS EXIST. Basically, I am saying that pastors somehow, "MAGICALLY" DETERMINED THAT TITHES OF THE LAND BECAME TITHES OF THE POCKETBOOK.
1Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.
2The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks.
3And ye shall go out at the breaches, every cow at that which is before her; and ye shall cast them into the palace, saith the LORD.
4Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years:
5And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
6And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
7And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.
8So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
9I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
10I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
11I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.
12Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.
13For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name.
Tithes given is useless when character was sinful. That was then, as it is with GIVING (NOT TITHING) today. This scripture leads into the final and most PREFERRED AND USED PASSAGE ON TITHING BY PASTORS. Malachi 3:8-12
Law Tithing Complete
This last scripture in the Old Testament on tithing is crucial. The PASTORS (HIRELINGS) TODAY use this scripture on a predominately fragile membership. The old' "CURSED WITH A CURSE", mind game is in common use among the TITHE-MONGERERS. MALACHI 3:8-12 is the most widely used passage of scripture, but EHI IS GOD ADDRESSING????????????????
8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
Who are the YE'S and YOU'S in these verses? Well to know that you have to start from chapter 1
6A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
8And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
PRIESTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Look at what they are doing! It gets worse.
12But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
13Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
14But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.
What have the PRIESTS profaned? God's Name!!!!!!!!!
1And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Who is being addressed AGAIN? The PRIESTS!!!! Who is cursed? The PRIESTS!!!!
7For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
The PRIEST are again addressed as the problem, but it's the PEOPLE that God will expose their evil to.
If anyone knows all to well, the preacher will place himself in place of the priests and lay the charge of cursing on the people, when the scriptures say exactly the opposite. The very gospel many are supposed to be preaching has been replaced with the gospel of blessings through tithing. The cross is almost unheard of from the pulpit. It's no wonder why America is falling down.
We also still see tithes being NON-MONETARY commodities up to the last book in the Old Testament.
In conclusion, ALL PREACHERS WHO ARE PUSHING TITHING, STOP, STUDY, AND REPENT TO GOD AND YOUR CONGREGATION.
NEW TESTAMENT TITHING?????????????
There are only 8-9 individual verses about tithing in the whole New Testament. Three show tithing of NON-MONETARY commodities (i.e. NO MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!).
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
mint, anise, and cummin are not forms of CURRENCY/MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
42But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Same thing going on here as in Matthew 23.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
This Pharisee was bragging about keeping the Law. Remember that he is still under the Law as well. Still no evidence that tithes of the law is MONEY$$$ today.
1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
What is the whole context of Hebrews 7? The priesthood of Christ was GREATER THAN, REPLACED, AND ABOLISHED THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD. So why do so many preachers say that TITHES is the ONLY practice that carried over from the New Testament?
1.) Ignorance- Some preachers just don't know any better!!!!!!!!!
2.) Love of money and selfishness.
I Timothy 6
9But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
When a man of God claims he has a vision from God, the first thing he wants is for you to agree with his vision, then support; but once the support is not going as expected, desperation sets in, and next thing you know, the pastor is bringing up all sorts of other Old Testament forms of giving. Why? The problem is that if his vision does not come to pass, he knows he's a fraud.
Next will be pro and anti tithing links. Get ready for some serious information.
AGAINST TITHING LINKS
I was listening to a sermon on relating to tithing. This quote comes from the link supporting tithing.
"There may be some people who wind up giving more than a tithe like the widow who gave 100% (Luke 21:4) You never know what is going to happen when the Gospel is at work."
Heres' the sermon explaining that very verse and its proper context!
Here is some pro-tithing comments:
From: "ANZAC Prophetic List"
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:33:46 -0600
The word "tithe" means 10%. To me it is a bottom line
amount that the Lord asks us to give as a matter of
obedience to his word in the area of finances. In
Mattthew 23:23 Jesus clearly says to tithe, but it is in the context of a "minor" thing compared to weightier matters like justice, mercy and faith. The reason we make it a major thing is because money tests the heart.
Accoding to a recent statistic that I read, less than 6% of Christians tithe. I've heard many say, "I don't tithe because 100% of what I have is the Lord's." I have observed that it is usually an excuse to give next to nothing.
The biggest problem that honest people like yourself
have is WHERE to give the tithe, and this problem is
compounded because of organized churchianity. I
don't believe it should go to building projects or even Christian literature. I believe scripture is clear where the Lord's tithe goes... Deut. 26:13 says it should go to "the Levite (five-fold ministers) the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow." Bottom line - it should go to PEOPLE, not institutions.
Tithing was never an Old Covenant establishment but
rather preceded the giving of the law. Genesis 14 recalls the story of Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek, king of Salem. This was the first recorded instance of the paying of tithes. Then in Hebrews 7, Paul expounds this incident. Paul's description of this priest of Salem indicates that he was no ordinary person. He was the King of righteousness, the King of peace. Having received tithes at Abrahams's hand, he then blesses Abraham.
But let me also add that I have proven the Word of God as recorded in Malachi 3 true in my own life. My testimony is that until I recommitted my life to Christ in around 1995 I had never been taught about tithing and sought to find out more about it. I was so persuaded by The Word of God that I did put God to the test. I started out tithing on my net income but then moved on to tithe on the gross (pre tax deductions). As a result of taking God at His Word and consistently tithing, I noticed a great change in my finances. At the beginning of each month I was in the habit of sitting down and drawing up a
budget based on my earnings for the month. In most cases after identifying all my outgoings I would have
about £20 left to take me through the month. This was
meant to cover groceries the lot. My experience was
this, every month I had sufficient funds and never went overdrawn on my bank account. I am now way beyond
the £20 limit. God has blessed me in my employment
with promotions that have yielded an increase enabling
me to be a blessing to others. My spiritual life has
seen untold growth, the revelation I receive from His
Word, fruit produced in ministry, I cannot begin to
explain just how much of a harvest God has produced
in my life and now I just would never consider not
tithing. If I receive a monetary gift I tithe on that too.
You see, I never view it as giving to the Church - it is my offering to God for the work of His kingdom. As I bring into the House of God so that His work may go on, so God brings into my life and I am blessed. God
cannot but honor His Word.
From: "Beryl Peterson"
I know this is not suitable for teaching, but I need to answer my thoughts on tithing. I take such joy in tithing that I cannot wait until the end of the month to write my check and we have a church that has some program at least 4-5 days and nights a week. I have such joy when I can give into the offering. I never felt this way before I became a Christian. I am a widow of almost 20 years this year and I have been handicapped since 1994. When my husband went to be with Jesus I was earning $5000 per year. I had no idea how I was going to manage. He was only 51 when he died of brain cancer and I was left with medical bills and struggling. I found jobs baby sitting, teacher's aide, dog sitting, tutoring, Cheer leader sponsor and other odds and ends. I never wanted and God restored each time I had a need.
One day I really wanted some onions and tomatoes so
I could make Spaghetti sauce. I was driving home from
school and on the main street there were 12 vidalia
onions. I stopped my car and picked them up and I got
home and there was a box of tomatoes on my door step.
That September I was offered a teaching job at the high school, teaching remedial math and reading. Two
students asked me to lead a prayer and bible study in
my classroom.. I was delighted and they had gotten
permission from the principal. Another teacher came in to help me and the teachers would send their troublesome children to me and they knew I would pray for them. I would lead them to the LORD and they would tell their parents and bring them to my home in the evening. This went on 7 days a week and it was wonderful until 1994, when I became too ill to work.
I was never able to continue to work but I know my
savior provides for me and allows me to have the joy of giving people rides to different places and praying with them. I truly am blessed and joy wells up in me when I can give over and above my tithe.
The link to the previous pro-tithe info is: http://freegroups.net/html/?19::109
At this juncture, I believe that some good links have been provided. There will definitely be more to come.
BUT THE NEXT POST IS WHERE THE RUBBER WILL MEET THE ROAD. IT WAS THE MAIN REASON WHY I STARTED THE THREAD.
A COMPLETE AND FULL EXPLANATION WIL BE GIVEN PRIOR TO THE EVIDENCE I OBTAINED WHILE GOING THROUGH THIS ORDEAL.
IT IS SAD REALLY TO KNOW THAT MANY PASTORS IN PULPITS ARE NOT STUDYING TO SHOW THEMSELVES APPROVED. THE VERY REASON FOR THEIR BEING IS TO MAKE VERY VERY SURE THAT WHAT THEY ARE DISPENSING IS THE BEST RENDERING OF SCRIPTURE.
THESE MEN, IF THEY HAVE MID-WEEK SERVICE OR BIBLE STUDY HAVE 2 AND 3 DAYS BETWEEN SERVICES TO PREPARE. THIS IS AMPLE TIME TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE IT RIGHT.
SO THE REMAINDER OF THIS THREAD WILL CONCENTRATE ON TITHING, BUT OTHER ASPECTS ARE UNCOVERED DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE CORRESPONDENCES I HAD WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE.
I had already intended on doing a thread on tithing, but my churches’ policy sped that up a little. You will find out where I go to church, who my pastor is, and other various leaders that I have had run-ins with and why.
I need to give a brief outline of what I am doing here. The whole thing will be in 3 separate replies.
1.) My Pastor's directive during altar call
2.) My purpose for being at the church
3.) The Ministry of Teaching Class
4.) The Letter to my Pastor
5.) Meeting with a Minister
6.) My response letter to the minister
7.) Correspondence with another leader.
#1- My pastor does a great altar call, asking first for the unsaved to accept Jesus, then for believers to join the "LOCAL BODY".
This is the part that really irked me; the details are in part 4. He will then say that if you want to exercise your spiritual gift that Elevation Baptist Chruch is the place to do that. I have listened to this at least 100+ times. Finally, a break occurred; a Ministry of Teaching Class. So I signed up for the class. While waiting for the class to start, I went ahead and purchased the books so I could read ahead and be prepared. During this time, I sent a letter to my pastor about some unaddressed concerns. So I heeded the call of my pastor, and took him at his word.
#2- My purpose for being at Elevation was to help the pastor. My letter shows this as you will see.
#3- The Ministry of Teaching Classes was designed to enhance those who believe they have this gift. So I signed up. THREE WEEKS later, I get a call from the youth minister, who evidently had some leadership role in the ministry of teaching. He wanted me to come in and speak to him. I am IMMEDIATELY SUSPICIOUS, so when I call, I ask him the purpose of the meeting. He does not answer the question in detail, just that he wants to speak to me. I decide to go with no pre-disposition. Actually, I am looking forward to it.
#4- It all started with a letter to my pastor, which was sent about 2 days prior to my meeting with the minister. See #3 above and #5 below!!!!
Here is the letter,
Praise the Lord,
I have contacted the church via the homepage contact form, and even the deacon's ministry collective e-mail. In all, I believe I have received one return e-mail for all of my correspondences as they relate to the subjects below. I have been patient on a reply concerning tithing. I had hoped to receive a return e-mail.
Before I start with my issues and concerns, I would like to state my purpose of being at EBC. Simply put; it is helping you in whatever way I can.
Here are the problems:
1.) I am hearing a very mixed message. Tithing is required! Tithing is Free-Will! You should Tithe! The back of the program even attempts to place Tithing in the realm of New Testament giving. The program is "not really" saying one must tithe, just a part of the whole on the subject to make it appear that tithing is a type of giving in New Testament. I have even heard you state that we should bring the [TITHE at the first of the week- July 22, 2007], which is in direct contradiction of God's Word,
I Corinthians 16:2- Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
I was told in my new member’s class that tithing is required of members. An application asks if one tithes! So what is the churches' official position on tithing?
Capital Building Campaign
2.) When the building project got underway, I noticed the familiar pattern of bringing people before the body to testify about tithing and blessings. Testimonies are personal experiences, not scriptural justifications or proofs that tithing works (i.e. the so-called Malachi 3:8-10 windows blessing). Personal experiences do not validate scripture.
Now when I heard the financial report, I knew what to expect. I knew the amount that should have been raised at that time was approximately $800,000. The actual Capital Campaign Fund was at $65,000 that is less than 1/10th of the expected amount. I knew what was coming next. I knew it would be an Old Testament practice changed to a financial blessing decree, such as the Heave Offering. Lo and behold, the First fruits offering appears in the Sunday church bulletin.
First Fruit Offering
3.) The problem I have with the First fruit Offering other than it being manipulated, which is unscriptural, is the 25% amount. Is that even scriptural? Where is it decreed that 25% is the amount? Where did that number come from? When will this stop? It is just like the government. When they can't pass a bond issue to pay for something, they just find a way to TAX you. I did notice that this 25% amount changed in the bulletin about 3 weeks later. Why was that?
Apostolic Anointing- Miracles, signs, and wonders
4.) My next contention is with a statement made during a sermon concerning Apostolic Anointing along with miracles, etc. I would like to address, “THE THEOLOGICALLY INFORMED” comment you made concerning the belief that what we see in Acts is for today. This comment strikes me odd, as you are a graduate of a seminary school. What bothers me about this comment is what it really says to the membership. You are either knowingly or unknowingly influencing people to turn a deaf ear to anyone that disagrees with what you are saying, especially those who claim they are “theologically informed”. Well, I just happen to be theologically informed, and submit to you that the Apostles were special messengers and those miracles, signs, and wonders have their purpose. But why does one need to see or experience miracles to believe in them, even rejoice in them? They are written. If we have some need to see miracles, signs, or wonders, it’s easy to look no further than John 2. But what is easily noticed is that all Christians were not performing or experiencing miracles in the written record of the New Testament. Is not the salvation of a soul a sufficient miracle, sign, and wonder? I believe miracles still occur, but they are not needed to establish truth, or increase faith. If we believe the Bible, we must believe in the supernatural. The written record is the established proof, not personal experience.
Although we discussed this before, the tongues we see in the modern church today (the gibberish and babbling) was a common phenomenon among Pagans before the Incarnation of Christ (i.e. the Jews would have recognized it as Pagan at Pentecost), and Pagans are still doing it today.
Armor Bearing or Leadership
5.) I signed up for the leadership class believing it to be about leadership, not training to be an armor bearer. At the end of the second class, the teacher was discussing the role of an armor bearer. I was taken aback when I was told that in times of emergency that the Pastor takes precedence over the armor bearer’s wife and family. The exact example was that if a tornado were to hit Raleigh, and the Pastor lived on the other side of town that the armor bearer’s wife and children would have to make do on their own, or fend for themselves. This was the response I received after challenging such a ludicrous statement. I asked, “Where in the Bible does it say the Pastor comes before a wife”? I was summarily told that if I didn’t buy into that, then armor bearing was not my calling. The question was never scripturally answered. The only answer I received was a comparison of an armor bearer to a secret serviceman. A Pastor is not a King, President, etc.
The teacher of the Armor bearer class is also the head deacon.
Peter’s cursing or use of profanity
6.) Is profanity (cursing) being spoken by Peter, or is it something else. A study of the passage will render the fact that he is not cursing (using profanity). This is a common fallacy passed down via ignorance and simply accepting another person at their word.
In conclusion, I love you and every believer at EBC. One thing I count above that all is the truth of God’s Word.
5.) Meeting with a Minister
6.) My response letter to the minister
#5- The meeting with the youth minister happened shortly after I sent this letter to the pastor, but I do not believe that this meeting was connected to the letter. You will see why. When I come in the office, I’m upbeat and all ears. Next thing you know, he starts talking about the direction of the church and if I’m with it. I said what is the direction of the church? Then he starts backtracking (almost stuttering), and says that there has been talk around the church. Now I’m really all ears, when he says that he has heard (hearsay) that I disagree with TITHING, which is A DIRECTION OF THE CHURCH. I didn’t even bother to ask how the rumor got started. Then I told him about the letter I sent to the pastor, HE LOOKED TOTALLY SURPRISED. This is why I believe that the letter had nothing to do with the meeting.
Anyhow, I told them that I do not believe tithing is a BIBLICAL REQUIREMENT FOR CHRISTIANS. He tried his best to squeeze out a scripture and some practical application. The only thing he could say was that food tithing was converted to money. I asked for scripture. You could have heard a pen drop. No longer wanting to seek scripture, he asks me if I am going to hold my position. I said yes, and he said that I will NEVER hold a teaching position in this church. I wrote him a reply letter, but never gave it to him for the reasons in #7.
#6- Minister Foust,
First and foremost, I would like a letter signed by the appropriate people, with the reasons why I cannot participate in the class and/or the teaching ministry.
I wanted to comment on some things we discussed. First, I apologize for being
upset regardless of who is right or wrong. This apology though is not an agreement to submit to tithing. Everything you spoke to me I considered coming from your heart and sincere beliefs. My anger is not really being expressed toward you; I am saddened that MONEY can keep someone from teaching the gospel. Before I proceed, I want to present an analogy as it relates to the church in reference to the lay members and leadership?
The Scarecrow had to figure out he had a brain, although he could already think and read for himself. The Tin Man had to figure out he had a heart, when he already had feelings. The Cowardly Lion was already courageous; it only took the right situation for him to express it. But the Wizard of OZ thought he was in control, until the curtain was pulled back, and Dorothy with the others realized that he was just a man, not one who possessed the only source of knowledge and authority. When situations are presented to individuals, their responses speak volumes. Maybe, if we sit down and talk again, I will explain the analogy to you.
If you believe in tithing and knew that I had issues with it, before you saw my name on that sheet, why was I not confronted by the person(s) who knew? This would have been the Biblical way to handle it. After all, why would they/you want someone walking around cursed with a curse? But my main issue is that rumors/facts had been swirling around about me, as you said in so many words, and a disagreement with a doctrine of EBC tells their members to follow, and no one in the church is qualified enough to approach me and explain it to me? I find that disingenuous and unbiblical. When the circumcision was an issue in the first century, they didn’t deal with it privately. It was discussed openly in the presence of those who disagreed. Oh, how church leadership has strayed from straight dealing with those who disagree with them. I was basically that scab no one wanted to pick, and hopefully go away, or acquiesce.
During our conversation, you gave no scriptural and practical justification for tithing. All you did was mention Malachi 3, nothing more. Everything else mentioned were the typical clichés heard in tithing circles, such as, I believe money is what should be tithed, or how is the church to be financed, etc. I on the other hand, quoted and explained 4-5 scriptures. I was a leader in a church for almost 8 years. I am not new to the expectations of ministers. When a lay member disagrees with church doctrine, they should be immediately confronted, not with a closed mind though, but a listening ear. You never know, the lay member may know something you do not. We are all commanded to study and search the scriptures. But teachers have a much greater responsibility. By the way, I was a tithe payer, and now I am not, but I am blessed, but I guess that does not qualify me to come up and testify either.
I have already bought the books for my classes. Now I am aware that I will not be allowed to teach, but may I participate in the classes?
When I mentioned having e-mailed the Pastor concerning tithes, you appeared surprised. This meeting did not catch me off guard. Based on my past meeting with you, and discussions with other leaders, I pretty well knew and/or was aware what to expect. You also brought up tongues as a topic of hot debate. The tongues we see in the church today have no resemblance to what it was then, but it does share resemblance with paganism.
Although I was upset, it had no bearing on you as an individual. I believe you are a stand up person, a believer indeed.
7.) Correspondence with another leader.
#7- I decided to defer to another ministry leader as how to go about,
1.)Getting reimbursed for the books I paid for.
2.)Getting a written statement from appropriate leadership stating the exact reasons why I take the classes.
Here is what happened:
God Bless You xxx!
As you may or may not know, I was declined to participate in the 13 week teaching class and /or teach in the church. The reason being is that I do not believe tithing should be a mandatory commitment, binding among Christians, or a requirement of any church. When I discussed this with Minister Foust, it was either known or suspected that I did not believe in mandatory tithing, but no one ever approached me about it until my name was on the sign up list. Before meeting with Minister Foust, I had already e-mailed Pastor Carmichael about this issue, but had not, nor have yet to hear back from him. I do believe the e-mail has been read. Since this issue is now out in the open, how you wish to proceed is alright with me. I do not have Minister Foust's e-mail address, but wish to send him a reply to our meeting last week. I may have to give him a written letter. If I am not allowed to teach in the church, and/or not allowed to participate in the 13 week classes, I would like to have the reasons in writing and signed by the appropriate leadership. This is what I am asking for at this time.
Jesus is Lord and God,
I have discussed your concern with the necessary members of leadership. I thank God for your willingness to teach, and pray for your growth and strength in Christ Jesus. However, the decision that was made is final. Pursuing it any further will not change it. I pray that this will not hinder your walk with God or your desire to serve Him.
Will I still be able to get this in writing? All I am saying is own up to it in a way that says, I am responsible for this decision. Also, it will not hinder me, I now understand where I must go from here. I have already bought the books, and I would like a reimbursement since I no longer need the books.
Thanks Brother! I am sorry for having to place you in this position, but it is not your fault.
sorry for taking so long to respond. Sunday is a long day for me. This issue is considered closed. Which means that nothing else will be done, including providing a written explanation, or any type of reimbursement from the church. Regarding your next email asking if Pastor received your email... I don't know.
Lastly, please don't worry about putting me in a bad position. I would much rather deal with this at this level, than trouble and/or distract Pastor from leading lost souls to Christ.
This whole thread, WHY TITHE? IS MY RESPONSE. The refusal to reimburse me for my books was just plain sad. So I decided to donate them to a student in need who wants to take the class.
In conclusion, I would like to say that MONEY is the root of my churches’ and leadership’s problem. The minister’s question of how the church will function without tithes is a PANDEMIC EPIDEMIC PROBLEM IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.
I could have kept quiet, but this is something that needs to be exposed. This is why CHURCH ABUSE EXISTS. No one wants to stand against false teaching in the church. The leadership acts like a MASONIC BROTHERHOOD or GREEK ORGANIZATION, keeping everything SECRET, they can gossip and engage in hearsay. They want total CONTROL. If the leadership had the courage to meet with me on this, neither they, nor the church would have been mentioned in this thread to this extent whether or not we agreed.
I hope my pastor will seek the Holy Spirit and search the scriptures on the tithing issue.
Very thorough explanation on your circumstances indeed. I was going to post something in relation to your statement on personal experience or testimony verifying scripture before you posted your info.:)
I believe that a lot of Christians regarding Christianity and their understanding believe in “My experience or testimony validates Scripture as true” when it should not be so. Especially regarding tongues as stated by many Christians I have encountered. But instead it should be stated…example..(I do not have to experience walking on water, to validate or approve my understanding of Scripture, that Jesus walked on water, Scripture is true regardless of my experience or belief).
Tithes is something that is preached in Church consistently, I don’t know if it’s a result of our people living in poverty and being a motivation to tithe to be “blessed”. As a pastor said, “most tithing is used for promising blessings, financial or materialistic, and now the new one is a spouse”
Tithing PRE-DATED Abraham's Tithe or giving of a tenth.
Please do some research on this and see what you find.
My family attended a new church this Resurrection Sunday. I agree that tithing is not a requirement, and once upon a time I was a tither. I was disillisuioned when a Bishop of a church asked me, not my husband whom he had just talked to on the phone (The HEAD OF THE HOUSE): 1) if I was working and 2)where I was tithing to.
These questions came about in a phone conversation that we had to let him know that we had made it safe to our new domicile. I felt that he was very sneaky, and it had ulterior motive written all over it. It was at that point that I realized that if I decided to give 10% it would be because God convicted me to do so, and not as the result of being coerced and manipulated into doing it.
My biggest issue with it is: the focus on material reward and 2)being duped into it because leadership attaches prosperity to it, furthermore, when PAul instructs that no man should give under complusion, how many people are giving the tithe because a Bishop or Pastor has gulited them into it? This contradicts the scripture not to give under compulsion when I am being taught that I have to do it. Have I decided in my heart to give it or am I giving it because I have been told I have no choice but to tithe? Leadership teaches how much to give without foucsing on the HEART with which to give, or to serve, or to follow Christ. OFF-TRACK, plus it is an old testament custom, and we are not Israelites. NEW COVENANT through Jesus. Yes we should give, no we should not be stingy toward God, but NO MAN should require a member to tithe. In some churches, this is required for membership. This is ludicrous. Too many churches are requiring man to man covenants, and not focusing on covenant between us and Christ.
Anyway....went to a new church for Resurrection Sunday and they took up tithes and offerings. Pastor started talkng about "daring" someone to put this creed up in their bathroom mirror everyday and say it regularly...at this point i am clueless but when evryone stands to their feet to bless the offering the congregation all together starts reciting this creed, "I am believing in GOd for prosperity, financial blessings, checks in the mail, businesses prospering, loans being paid of, rebates and refunds..." and it went on for maybe 2 or 3 minutes.
I spoke to a friend and she told me they did the same thing at her church, in South Carolina.
Did not like this, did sit well with me....sounds too much like Creflo Dollar-ism, mega-church-ism to me.
I have denounced my affiliation with Kappa Alpha Psi. I tried to do a post to the Tithe blog, but I do not have a password. I agree that we are not required to tithe. My wife copied the tithe article that you did and sent it to members of our church. This is the pastor's response to your article...this is crazy. By the way, we have left this church.
i agree and disagree. i do not think he understands the spirit under which paul writes these letters. when he says we are not under the law he does not intend to abolish the law. jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. it seems that most believe "see he fulfilled it" and the implication of this statement is that he abolished it by fulfilling it. This is not true. Jesus fulfilled the law and he left his life as an example for us to follow. This means live as he lived 1 peter 2:21. What paul is saying about grace applies when we fall short of the glory of God. He does not mean we are no longer under Gods rules for his people"the law" . he only means we are now under grace. . this is the perfect law of christ. do what pleases God. his rules will be valid even after the second return of christ micah 4:2.. and when we fall short as all men do we have the grace of christ to save us.. example John 8:7 . this is what james spoke of james 1.25. so i do not agree that the law is invalid. i do believe in tithing. i do believe there is benefit in following the law.1 peter 1:15-16 . Be careful when reading the letters paul wrote. they seem to contradict when not understanding the circumstance and the spirit he writes under. for example in phillipians 3 he condems those who are of the teaching of circumcision. then in phillipians 3:4-6 he makes it clear that he follows the law. what is not understood is that these of the circumcision taught that to be saved you must be circumcised. this is not true. Does this mean paul did not follow or believe there was benefit in following Gods law ? phillipians 3:6. I do not know but i do find that he regarded it enough to keep it. phillipians3:4-6. 2 peter 3:14-18. Christ commanded us to love God with all that we are. how can we do this and ignore the rules he set for his chosen people to live by. 1 john 5:2-3 . The word of God is a mystery. If we do not seek him with a whole heart we will not find him 1 chronicles 28:9 . ... now am i saying to get to heaven you must follow the law. no i am not. is there benefit clearly there is. these last 2 sentences are my words but they paraphrase the words of my lord and savior the messiah who is the son of God Jeshua. Matthew 5:17-20. the paraphrase is for verse 19. God bless you with grace, peace, and love
I have denounced my affiliation with Kappa Alpha Psi. I tried to do a post to the Tithe blog, but I do not have a password. I agree that we are not required to tithe. My wife copied the tithe article that you did and sent it to members of our church. This is the pastor's response to your article...this is crazy. By the way, we have left this church.
i agree and disagree. i do not think he understands the spirit under which paul writes these letters. when he says we are not under the law he does not intend to abolish the law. jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. it seems that most believe "see he fulfilled it" and the implication of this statement is that he abolished it by fulfilling it. This is not true. Jesus fulfilled the law and he left his life as an example for us to follow.
Min. H's response
If we keep tithing, then we must keep it in the same exact sense. Farmers, ranchers, and people with personal gardens, do not forget to bring your tomatoes and cows. And don't forget that tithes actually end up being 23%, so when you pay tithes and offering at your church, your offering will have to exceed your tithe by 13%, just to meet the mandatory requirement of the tithe.
This means live as he lived 1 peter 2:21. What paul is saying about grace applies when we fall short of the glory of God. He does not mean we are no longer under Gods rules for his people"the law" . he only means we are now under grace. . this is the perfect law of christ. do what pleases God. his rules will be valid even after the second return of christ micah 4:2.. and when we fall short as all men do we have the grace of christ to save us.. example John 8:7 . this is what james spoke of james 1.25. so i do not agree that the law is invalid. i do believe in tithing. i do believe there is benefit in following the law.1 peter 1:15-16 . Be careful when reading the letters paul wrote. they seem to contradict when not understanding the circumstance and the spirit he writes under. for example in phillipians 3 he condems those who are of the teaching of circumcision. then in phillipians 3:4-6 he makes it clear that he follows the law. what is not understood is that these of the circumcision taught that to be saved you must be circumcised. this is not true. Does this mean paul did not follow or believe there was benefit in following Gods law ? phillipians 3:6. I do not know but i do find that he regarded it enough to keep it. phillipians3:4-6. 2 peter 3:14-18. Christ commanded us to love God with all that we are. how can we do this and ignore the rules he set for his chosen people to live by. 1 john 5:2-3 . The word of God is a mystery. If we do not seek him with a whole heart we will not find him 1 chronicles 28:9 . ... now am i saying to get to heaven you must follow the law. no i am not. is there benefit clearly there is. these last 2 sentences are my words but they paraphrase the words of my lord and savior the messiah who is the son of God Jeshua. Matthew 5:17-20. the paraphrase is for verse 19. God bless you with grace, peace, and love
This PASTOR'S response is missing so much, but the main thing missing is WHEN DO WE SEE FOOD AND ANIMALS changing to money as the standard? Tithe baiting pastors are those who have self-inflated visions that they want other people to pay for. Well, if I'm not in agreement with your vision, I am not giving to it.
THIS COMES FROM MY BLOG- CHURCHIANITY IS EXPENSIVE
While I do not agree with everything that you have said (because the LORD said to bring your gift to the temple and he did say 1/10), while I do understand that you are going on strictly what the New Testament says, I am a believer in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand God’s prophecy for His people and the NEW TESTAMENT, God’s plan revealed. And the LORD never said anything about NOT giving/tithing which to me are intermingled. I will GIVE cheerfully back to GOD a portion of what HE has given me because GOD is the owner of all that I have and all that I am.
A great deal of what has been posted on this blog I do recognize and have observed first hand. Preaching that folks will be “cursed with a curse” or “cursing those people that do not follow the vision” is un-Biblical, makes my spirit jump as it should make any Bible believing Christian. Enticing/encouraging/compelling/begging/bullying people to “come on and bless this man of God with an offering” or “bless this woman of God with a seed offereing” and doing so in such a bold and shameless manner when you are supposed to be closing out the worship service by blessing God’s people with a benediction for “the LORD bless you and keep you, now and forever, AMEN”. You don’t beg and bully people for money in these tough economic times. Especially when folks are not only losing their jobs, but losing their homes. This is not of God, what this is a demonstration of the wants of the flesh (money) and unbelievable display of poor taste and poor judgement (love of money and worldly pleasure). And to think to have a supposed woman of God singing a song in a vieled threat of “you better be careful of what you say about me”. It is sad, sad, sad.
I don’t recognize this man or this woman as the humble people they once were. The Carmichaels have lost themselves. Puffed up, prideful, materialistic, hard hearted. I pray for the Carmichaels because I will not curse them, their family or ANYONE else with a curse, THAT is un-Godly behavior and a demonstration of darkness no matter how you slice it and how it is served up. They need prayer and a lot of it.
EBC has a lot of good men and women who have swallowed the “kool-aid” and do not understand they are being preached straight into hell.
I have attached the NLT of 2 Corinthians 9 and the WHOLE thing so that people can not pick and choose what they want to believe what the LORD said about GIVING. I pray God’s peace upon all of you.
2 Corinthians 9
The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem
1 I really don’t need to write to you about this ministry of giving for the believers in Jerusalem.
2 For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to the churches in Macedonia that you in Greece were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of the Macedonian believers to begin giving.
3 But I am sending these brothers to be sure you really are ready, as I have been telling them, and that your money is all collected. I don’t want to be wrong in my boasting about you.
4 We would be embarrassed—not to mention your own embarrassment—if some Macedonian believers came with me and found that you weren’t ready after all I had told them!
5 So I thought I should send these brothers ahead of me to make sure the gift you promised is ready. But I want it to be a willing gift, not one given grudgingly.
6 Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop.
7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”
8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others.
9 As the Scriptures say, “They share freely and give generously to the poor. Their good deeds will be emembered forever.”
10 For God is the one who provides seed for the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will provide and increase your resources and then produce a great harvest of generosity in you.
11 Yes, you will be enriched in every way so that you can always be generous. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will thank God.
12 So two good things will result from this ministry of giving—the needs of the believers in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanks to God.
13 As a result of your ministry, they will give glory to God. For your generosity to them and to all believers will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ.
14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the overflowing grace God has given to you.
15 Thank God for this gift too wonderful for words!
"'. . . . and adding on to my prior comment, if you pay special note to verses 9 - 15. What is EBC under Carmichael doing for those that are poor, downtrodden and broken? Does the leadership at EBC fail to see that by DOING the WORD of GOD instead of simply collecting will bring more blessing upon this great church and edify the Body of Christ? If such was the case, there would be no need for this blog.'"
Min. H (admin) stated:
“While I do not agree with everything that you have said (because the LORD said to bring your gift to the temple and he did say 1/10), while I do understand that you are going on strictly what the New Testament says, I am a believer in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand God’s prophecy for His people and the NEW TESTAMENT, God’s plan revealed. And the LORD never said anything about NOT giving/tithing which to me are intermingled. I will GIVE cheerfully back to GOD a portion of what HE has given me because GOD is the owner of all that I have and all that I am.”
I have no problem with the Old Testament. There are things that we should continue to follow in the Old Testament, and that’s at the least, any command that Jesus and the Apostles brought over. Tithing has been done away with, but not giving, which was actually carried over. The Jewish Dietary Laws were abolished in the New Testament. The Lord did speak on the issue of tithing under the Law. The Bible does speak of a cancellation of the ordinances in Colossians 2:14,
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
and Ephesians 2:15
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Tithing was an ordinance, Numbers 18
So although giving/tithing is seen together in the Old Testament, they are not the same.
walking out the door said:
Lifitng one certain passage of scripture is a pet peeve of mine, not to mention dangerous and why some people of the Carmichael’s ilk take The Word of God and twist it to sound like something they think others want/need to hear or fall victim to their scheme. Wolves in sheep’s clothing if you will.
I am of the school of know the Word, the whole Word so as not be be a victim of the wiles of the devil that will lead you to a burning hell. Lift the entire passage so that the unlearned can read the whole passage for themselves to gain understanding and to not lead a person who is a non-believer or does not understand the Word into hell and that is charged to my account.
Respectfully, I cannot see how you can draw this conclusion that Col 2:14 is a statement against tithing or giving. Sounds like you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this. I believe that the Lord wants a man to give (tithe) as he is able.
Giving/tithing is a profession of faith and trust in GOD and a highly personal matter on the vertical level.
Colossians 2 (New Living Translation)
1 I want you to know how much I have agonized for you and for the church at Laodicea, and for many other believers who have never met me personally.
2 I want them to be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have complete confidence that they understand God’s mysterious plan, which is Christ himself.
3 In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I am telling you this so no one will deceive you with well-crafted arguments.
5 For though I am far away from you, my heart is with you. And I rejoice that you are living as you should and that your faith in Christ is strong.
Freedom from Rules and New Life in Christ
6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him.
7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.
8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.
10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.
12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.
15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.
16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,
19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.
20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires."
Min. H said:
"What school did you go to? Do you think that quoting II Corinthians 9 is any better than what I quoted. Your scripture actually gives more credence that GIVING is the New Testament way for giving MONEY.
You cannot see it because you do not want to read the whole of Deuteronomy. Anyway, if you want the full deal, since you believe I am just peace-mealing, go to my discussion forum at http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=460887521&frmid=66&msgid=937655&cmd=show
I could easily say the same about how you try to with no sound background try to link tithing with giving. Tithing under the Law was FOOD only. Abraham tithed on the SPOILS of WAR. We do not know if Jacob ever tithed, then came the Law and the ordinance of tithing.
There is no such thing as tithing for the NT Christian. There is no Levitical Priesthood. If you truly love the Old Testament, I implore you read it carefully concerning tithes. Now, I am going to take these posts out and put them over to the discussion forum.
Bottom Line- You cannot link show ANY COMMAND for tithing in the New Testament. There are no limits on giving.
“'That which has been brought over from the OT into the new is clearly repeated after Calvary to the church in terms of grace and faith. That is why the Sabbath, food laws, circumcision and multiple wives are clearly discussed yet tithing is not. Second, the only time Jesus mentioned tithing was to criticize tithe-payers in the context of the law. It would have been impossible to Jesus to command his Gentile disciples to tithe.'” http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id142.html
The last sentence is key, for it was the many requirements placed upon the Jews that were being abolished for the sake of the Gentiles."
I am amazed at all the excuses Pastors will make to mention, ask, promote, mandate, require, force, etc. their MEMBERS to TITHE. I had this experience not too long ago and here was an excuse I heard in one sitting.
1.) 10% is a good benchmark or starting place for Christians to give freely. First of all, not all Jews did or were required to tithe. Non-Tithing occupations did not produce tithable commodities. A carpenter doesn't produce apples and sheep.
2.) God will test a person's heart based on their giving. Uh! Ask Peter, Paul, etc. that question. He will judge based on how you care for your family (i.e. you are worse than an infidel).
3.) It takes money to run a ministry. I agree, so instead of taking a youth group of 100 kids to the mountains for a retreat, buy a good DVD on social darwinism, and let kids see what is happening in their world. By the way, the parents may want/need to come. Afterwards, ask for a FREE-WILL offering. I guarantee it will pay for the DVD and the cost of the place big enough to hold 300 people.
For a thorough exegetical, hermeneutical, etc. approach to tithing, go to,
I am convinced in my heart that tithing should not be taught, mentioned, or suggested it has anything to do with GIVING money in or to the church. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM TEACHING FROM THE PROPER BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE, ESPECIALLY THE ONE THAT SAYS $$$$TITHING$$$$ IS OVER, SAID, AND DONE WITH FOR CHRISTIANS.
Dave Ramsey has a program called Financial Peace University. In his message to the church, he promotes the concept of tithing. Please read his explanation, and ask yourself these questions.
1.) What is missing from his explanation?
2.) Why give advice on something, but not explain it thoroughly. Rather than do the right thing, he wants to give you cliches about the 10% deal. Here's a couple of PSYCHOLOGICALLY LACED POISION from his site,
"So why does He ask us to give 10% to Him? Tithing was created for our benefit. It is to teach us how to keep God first in our lives and how to be unselfish people."
God commanded the Jews who farmed and raised animals to tithe.
"The tithe, which is a scriptural mandate, was not instituted for God's benefit because He already has all the money He needs. He does not need our money."
He calls it a scriptural mandate, but does not explain how it is so. When did God ever NEED MONEY? These are the kind of statements being made to convince people that tithing is legitimate church doctrine.
Now see, before I could even finish my post, I found something else more diabolical.
A person asked Dave this question,
"On Top Of Tithing
Dave tells Annie the difference between an offering and tithing, and why she should do both as a Christian.
QUESTION: Annie asks if it’s all right to give to other organizations besides churches. Dave talks about the distinction between giving and tithing, and why she should do plenty of both.
ANSWER: Certainly you should. You need to give to a lot of things. As a Christian, we’re called to tithe, which means a tenth of your income to your local church, before you do anything else. Anything after that is considered an offering, and my wife and I do those over and above our tithe. You should find things near and dear to your heart and support them."
Please listen to the audio. Notice his emphasis on the word Tiiiithe.
What's the problem here? Where does he get the information that one should give a tithe your local church (i.e. the one you belong to). He gets in from the notoriously and deceptively use of Malachi 3:8-12. Bring tithes into the storehouse.... STOREHOUSE IS NOT YOUR LOCAL CHURCH.
By the way, tithes were given to LEVITES. They don't exist anymore........... The LEVITES then GAVE TITHES TO THE AARONIC PRIESTS......... They don't exist anymore either.
NOWHERE does it say to tithe your income in the Bible. Yet, he calls tithing a biblical mandate.
So what should a Christian do if they are struggling to get a head in life and really make it out here. To catch God's attention I know they say that you have to sacrifice in life to get some where with God. I just don't understand how Blesses come when you got to go through so much struggle and hardache.
What should a Christian do if they are believing for better in their lives.
I just came from a Panel Discussion on Greek Life and Christianity. I can say this one thing, which I often say to myself. I am glad God humbled me, pulled me out of church for about a year, and that I gladly accepted His Word, not the word of others.
I say that to say this; that in the church, mostly black oriented churches, that we have not come to a point where we do not always feel the NEED to have someone in authority over us. I did not bring up the subject of tithing during the discussion, but a door was open to discuss it afterwards. Both of the other preachers had hemmed and hawed about being careful with doctrine and interpretaion. So some ques had some questions about their frat. They knew about the burial ceremony in their ritual, but overlooked the fact that it states their dead brethren are at peace with God WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST. They asked me a question about why am I putting their stuff out their like that. I explained that their information is not really secret, but just used to confirm identity. I then stated, shouldn't anything bad be exposed when it affects the body of Christ. "YES"! Let's take tithing for example.................. Uh Oh! The 2 preachers there were all ears. As soon as I stated that tithing was not a part of the New Covenant, the young que spouted Malachi 3 and robbing God. The Pastor used the OLD, "are we supposed to throw the O.T. stuff away". He then made 2 other statements, which of neither could be supported by scripture. The one I remember was he stated that the Levitical Priesthood is still alive through the current leadership model of the New Testament. When I showed him how the model actually existed, he had nothing to say. The young man who brought up Malachi 3, I simply stated, who is God addressing in Malchi 1, 2, and 3? I don't know! The priests!!!!! Then with all I have learned, thank God, I dealt the killer blow. So, just as it was then it is today, the priests are the robbers.
The other preacher who was there didn't say anything either. His pastor preaches tithing with a pimpness.