WELCOME to THE IVY DIVISION Message Forum I'm not sure that a forum like this is even needed nowadays since the advent of facebook, etc...but I hope that this once thriving BB does bring some of us back together again and that maybe some new folks will join us as well!
THIS website is a private SUPPORT SITE for 4th ID veterans, active duty soldiers, family members, friends and everyone who supports our troops no matter how you feel about our leaders. Troublemakers, gossips. trolls, liars, etc are NOT welcome here. Posts that defame,, humiliate and/or intimidate other posters or the webmaster will be deleted without notice or comment. Please read the rules on the Main Page, thank you!
This forum has a long history, by interent standards anyway-unfortunately it has been abandoned for far too long due to real life circumstances knocking the heck out of what had been my very real desire to keep this board alive and well forever so that all of us could meet here and communicate with each other everyday.
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I'm not sure that a forum like this is even needed nowadays since the advent of facebook, etc...but I hope that this once thriving BB does bring some of us back together again and that maybe some new folks will join us as well!
If Obama tries to truly end talk radio, that is true danger. If Obama’s party uses computer software
to gerrymander congressional districts so that voting is almost irrelevant, that threatens our right to end bad governance. If the federal government under Obama works to crush dissent, then we are in real trouble.
The assault that will end America is not on the household
wallet. It is the assault on independent thinking, spiritual values, and the right to disagree. College campus speech codes imposed upon American society scare me. Using federal muscle to determine what broadcasting is “fair” and what is not frightens me. Officially trashing our national tongue and our national culture in the pursuit of diversity threatens me.
The Founding Fathers did not wage a war of independence for money any more than the Pilgrims and other dissenters left England to get rich. America became rich because it embraced Judeo-Christian values which, in turn, formed the foundation for all our myriad categories of liberty. Free markets, a subset of those liberties, did produce wealth, but America is not great because of its wealth. America is great because it has always been profoundly connected with those sentiments of devout Christians and Jews, and because that connection inevitably leads to liberty.
We put the cart before the horse when the specter of socialism frightens us most. Socialism is, indeed, a symptom of something bad, but it is not the disease itself. Jews and Christians believe that we have a moral duty to help the poor. It takes the briefest reading of the Gospels to grasp how little Christ thought wealth should govern our lives. It takes the small understanding of Judaism to see how much more important learning Torah is than gaining treasure. Morality, not money, must be at the heart of what we cherish. If not, we lose everything else.
That is what we are seeing in Europe now. Sweden is becoming an increasingly ugly place, but not because of socialism. Loss of faith cripples Sweden. Moral relativism disarms sophisticates. Swedes cannot resist the brutal ambition of radical Islam, which has an Allah, with materialism, which has only atheism. The dominos are falling around the civilized world, but not because of risible, old economic theories. The dominos are falling because our core liberties have been cashed for goodies. We have forgotten the actual value of freedom.
Stupid tax policies, counterproductive government programs, and similar glop can always be undone. The socialism tried by the British and Swedes is dumb and self-destructive, but this socialism is not the moral enemy of our souls. Once we forget that we are special creatures in an ordered universe of purpose and once we embrace collectivism in our thinking and in our feeling, then all is lost.
Always oppose socialism. It always fails wretchedly. But never forget that the battle for our survival is much greater than just redistributing wealth or government handouts. We have, really, plenty of stuff. What we need is to fight for the grand idea of human liberty and to recall that this fight is at the heart of everything good that politics can do.
Yea, those benevolent Christians of both the Catholic and Protestant persuasion sure did a world of good for the inhabitants of both north and south America.
This guy is just trying to keep a job by enticing the brain dead types to continue being sheep for the sophists.
P.S. Those tossing the tea in the harbor were not doing it because it was morally correct to do so but because they were progressive thinking and wanted revolutionary change. Each and everyone of them was a "domestic terrorist" in the spirit of William Ayers. Some 235 years ago the conservatives of our times would have been singing "hail to King George."
Each and everyone of them was a "domestic terrorist" in the spirit of William Ayers.
John in as much as this is, at least for the time being, a free America you have the right to idolize bombers of innocent Americans all you care to.
235 years ago this country was suffering from the boot heel of of a distant, oppressive gov'mint.
I've been wanting to ask you if you believe that today's gov'mint emulates that same political philosophy?
Being a 'Perennial Rebel without a Cause' must be a daunting lifestyle. One that is not conducive to allowing one much happiness.
Of course if you were living in a cave, having to subsist on meager food stuffs and enduring the harsh lifestyle of the American rebels at Vally Forge then one could lend more credence your revolutionary ideals.
However I know that is not the case. You live very well in an air conditioned and heated environment, you eat well, you travel well, in short you utilize every convenience that Judeo-Christian values which, in turn, formed the foundation for all our myriad categories of liberty has afforded us as Americans.
See you have forgotten one of the basic tenets of the 60's era hippies as you have failed to live the lie. You may have 'turn on' but you have not 'drop out' and you continue to enjoy the life style of the bourgeois while at the same time denouncing that bourgeois lifestyle. Sounds a bit disingenuous to me.
Uhmmm, actually, a whole lot of the grievances against England that lead directly to the Revolution were about money.
And almost none of the key members of what we now call our founding fathers were Christians - and none were jews. And they very explicitly refused to write religion into the charter designed to guide our country.
I suspect that the idea that morality requires religion is put forward by weak men with poor control over their own responses to temptation. Men who admit out loud that without the carrot and the stick they would not honor either morals or law. Shame on them.
Barack H. Obama is and will be the president for the next four to 8 years. Live with it little boy.
Grant I assume this comment is directed to me, Live with it little boy, I will respond with this...come and make me live with it azzhole. However you being a coward I have little to fear.
never let you mouth write a check your azz can't cover, idiot....
Let him rant, gents. His point of view helps progressives. Check this out:
You Report, We Marginalize
By Harold Meyerson
Wednesday, November 12, 2008; Page A19
To: Mr. Roger Ailes
President, Fox News
You should be sitting when you read this, because I'm writing to apologize.
In times past, I've had harsh words for Fox for its consistent misrepresentation of the news. In 2003, I cited a survey from the Program for International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) and the Knowledge Network that showed that 45 percent of Fox viewers believed that the United States had uncovered incontrovertible proof that Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda had worked together; that we had found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq; and that a majority of peoples in other lands supported our war in Iraq. In case these bizarre misconceptions merely reflected the a priori beliefs of President Bush's supporters, PIPA further documented that Bush backers who got their news from other networks had a decidedly firmer grasp of the facts.
Now, I don't in any way retract my judgment that you guys were at the time and still are a constant source of right-wing fantasies. It's just that, at least in today's political environment, I'm no longer sure this is a bad thing.
The election has left the Republican Party reeling, its base shrunk to those Southern, Plains and Mountain West states where rural cultures still predominate. The party's smarter strategists are arguing that the worldviews of the social conservatives and free-market extremists who dominate the GOP are either irrelevant or ridiculous to voters in the middle of the political spectrum. "We can't be obsessed with issues that are not the issues that are important to American voters," Jim Greer, chairman of the Florida GOP, told the New York Times.
But Fox has won its viewership precisely by promoting such obsessions.
During the campaign just completed, you guys focused on Barack Obama's allegedly Muslim and alien roots and socialist ideology; meanwhile, in the real world, unemployment rose, foreclosures soared and Wall Street went flooey. Over the past eight years, you demonized undocumented immigrants (okay, CNN's Lou Dobbs gave you a run for your money on that one). You fed the Republican base with a steady diet of bile -- and now that bilious base is the biggest impediment to the Republicans' repositioning themselves so that they can win elections again.
Reach out to Latinos -- the inescapably growing segment of the American electorate that voted overwhelmingly for Obama after four years of GOP immigrant-bashing? Not if Fox viewers have anything to say about it. Not after you've drummed into their heads that the Latino immigrant population is some looming terrorist threat.
Modify that opposition to stem-cell research? Tone down the ridicule of people in public life who have advanced degrees? Call off the Republican war on science that kicks in whenever science runs counter to right-wing fundamentalism in religion or economics? Not if the Hannity faithful can help it.
You're not alone in reinforcing those beliefs that marginalize the Republican right, of course. You've got plenty of help from Rush and all the little Limbaughs whwho dominate talk radio. But together with your allies, you haul truckloads of troglodyte garbage to your flock.
And the way your flock sees it, the modifications that Republicans need to make to become competitive again in American politics -- acknowledging a need for state intervention to make the economy work, backing off the primitive religiosity, embracing a more tolerant pluralism -- amount to nothing less than heresy.
As an aide to Richard Nixon back in the day, Roger, you were around for the birth of the Southern strategy -- the policy to move all those disgruntled racist Southern whites into Republican ranks. But the party as Nixon would have recognized it ceased to exist after the Republicans captured Congress in 1994. Since then, the national Republican Party has been dominated by far-right Southern legislative leaders -- Newt Gingrich, Tom DeLay, Trent Lott -- and by George W. Bush. The past two elections, Republicans have grown weaker everywhere but the white rural South -- the region that remains the least educated and least diverse.
And rather than present these voters with a picture of a complex, changing world, you guys at Fox serve chiefly to reinforce their fears, to paint people who hold different viewpoints as alien and threatening.
In that sense, your work remains dangerous and disintegrative to the nation. But it is also, more narrowly, tactically, for now, a great gift to liberals and Democrats. You ensure the ongoing Palinization and marginalization -- electorally, the terms are synonymous -- of the Republican Party.
And to think that you're doing all this not on the Democratic National Committee's dime but on Rupert Murdoch's.
Cheers from your new fan,
First it was politics now it's religion. Come on guys give it a break. This is getting to deep enough is enough. JMHO
Jack I really do not see how all that gibberish is germane, however allow me to say this, that even that idiot Grant, might be able to understand.
It is one thing to get elected, it is quite another to keep the job.
It is now incumbent for Berry Hussein Obama to act on all those promises he made in the run up to the elections, because if he doesn't (and how could he) he own electorate will run his azz right out of that office.
Making inane promises (that even Obama knows is impossible) only sets one up for the fall. It is going to be a fun four years as I point out every little to huge faux pas he makes.
When that woman in Florida realizes that she still has to pay for her gas and mortgage her-own-self then the epiphany will be so great that she will just defecate all over herself. Then she'll get mad because she was so gullible to actually believe in Obama's campaign rhetoric....then she will want retribution.
If these figures are accurate, could it be that at least some of the wealthy realize how well off they are, and that those less fortunate should have help?
What's the Matter with Greenwich?
Daniel Gross notes that exit polls show the rich -- "and yes, if you make $250,000 or more you're rich" -- voted for Barack Obama for president "by bigger margins than did the merely well-off. If the exit polls are to be believed, those making $200,000 or more (6 percent of the electorate) voted for Obama 52-46, while McCain won the merely well-off ($100,000 to $150,000 by a 51-48 margin and $150,000 to $200,000 by a 50-48 margin)..."
"Perhaps most surprising was the result from Greenwich, Conn. The Versailles of the tri-state metro area, the most golden of the region's gilded suburbs, the childhood home of George H.W. Bush, went for Obama by a 54-46 margin -- the first time Greenwich went Democratic since 1964."
Mark Penn notes "the most affluent 5 percent supported Obama and that was perhaps the key to his victory last week."
Hide and watch, Russell. I think that you are going to be suprised. I think that he will almost certainly try to get the big ones (middle class tax cut, job stimulus) passed in the first year and probably in the first half of the year.
As Bill pointed out, Obama got the votes of the majority of people who will have their taxes raised by Obama's tax plan. They seem to understand something that a lot of you guys refuse to acknowledge - if you want services, you got to pay for them.
You ask how can Obama keep his promises? Why could he not? Why would he not?
Redleg you assumed right, I am not interested in doing any thing about it except gloat over your misery for the next 4 to eight years. I will say it again, In case you do not understand Barack H. Obama Has ben elect by a majority vote, He is and will be the President of the United States for the next 4 to eight years. Live with it, Junior.
“Those tossing the tea in the harbor were not doing it because it was morally correct to do so but because they were progressive thinking and wanted revolutionary change. Each and everyone of them was a "domestic terrorist" in the spirit of William Ayers.”
I think that to say William Ayers’s violent protests against the US government’s actions in South East Asia and the escalating Vietnam war...or his civil rights rhetoric and anti-imperialist propaganda was in the spirit of the civil disobedience of those tea tossers is like comparing an excessive tea tax to a Molotov cocktail.
just my opinion.....
For those of you who are not aware of this, my major in college was political science. After returning from Vietnam in 1969, I became moderately radicalized by the events going on in America. Most of us were aware of the turmoil that was being expressed in the cities and college campuses across the nation. It could have not been expressed any better than the lyrics from "For What It's Worth": "Something's happening here, what it is isn't exactly clear"....
Anyone with a social conscience would not have missed it. As a result, I became intrigued with the radical underground that had been reported about in the newspapers. I begin to inquire about their goals, aims and manifestos. I found that there was no one consensus. You had communist, Marxist/Leninist, socialist, libertarian, progressive laborites, yippies and groups I had never heard of. But one thing I did notice that was unique to a post modern world (don't you just love that term) was this sense of idealism that collectively we could change the world.
I witnessed mostly young people risking their future by speaking out against the global and domestic hypocrisy and dishonesty of the U.S. government. I heard a call to arms and empowerment to those that felt they could make a difference in the same vain that I could only imagine a young colonial must have felt. To act, to rebel against what was being seen as tyranny by our own government was viewed by many young people as the only acceptable conduct and sense of duty engrained in our hearts by the founding fathers and by the first inaugral speech of Lincoln.
So, what is so wrong with being a "domestic terrorist"? Maybe the problem is just the euphemistic use of the words. For instance, the Hungarian "freedom fighters" as I was told they were called in 1956, were most likely "domestic terrorist" in the eyes of the Soviet Union. More recently, the dissident Buddhists priest of Miramar (formerly Burma) for sure were "domestic terrorist" in the eyes of the military regime that represses all liberties in its country.
It is my understanding and interpretation that the founding fathers including George Washington were "domestic terrorists" and any citizen of the colonies that rose up against the legitimate government of British rule were in the same shoes. The Boston Tea Party was an overt act of "domestic terrorism". Whether you call them rebels, revolutionaries, freedom fighters, or terrorist, they are all the same. They are those that feel that change to the status quo of their existing government cannot be accomplished through peaceful means. Whether their motivation is ill-conceived, mis-guided or not is not as important as the fact they feel compelled to risk their personal health, safety and welfare not to mention life and liberty for what they feel is a noble cause. Less often than not, the motivations, unlike neo-capitalists, of revolutionaries are not driven by self-interest.
So, before you chastize someone for feeling a sense of rebellion just remember, our history has encouraged it and not denigrated it.
Russ, I have to chuckle that you want to include the "hippie" mantra as having political undertones. Not even close and what would you know about it anyway. But as always you want to twist the topic and make it personal. I don't need to apologize for the choices I have made and I am quite content with the consistency in my thoughts and actions.
And for your editfication the "Weather Underground" in its early stages never advocated harming any human being. As a matter of fact, if you check out the 1974 book "Prairie Fire" their self admitted crimes and targets were always aimed at institutions and symbols of what they felt were indications of American Imperialism.
Your point is well taken and I can only suggest to not take my comparison so literally. There were, in fact, less extreme methods used by the SDS (precursor to the Weathermen) and, of course, the Yippies believed more in the use of pranks than violence to effectuate change. In my opinion, I think Billy Ayers' heart and spirit were in the right place but his methods and ideologies would never stand the test of time.
P.S. Didn't those Hungarian freedom fighters use those molotov cocktails?
I see you see are reading your little "Red Book" and carry it with you at all times. Keep reading it as it's good for your intellectual thoughts lol.
Gary: It's a pity you don't read more books, red, blue, or otherwise. There is nothing wrong with reading the opposing point of view. If more people had read "Mien Kampf," in the 1930s, The world may have suffered a lot less grief in the 1940s.
Besides, how do we know if we're right when we don't know what the other side is saying? Critical thinking my friend, critical thinking.
PS: I confess that I once TRIED to read the "Communist Manifesto." It put me to sleep somewhere around the third page. Karl Marks was not the most lucid of writers. (He should have let Groucho write it, at least it would have been funny. )
GO AWAY REDLEG!!!!
THIS website is a private SUPPORT SITE for 4th ID veterans, active duty soldiers, family members, friends and everyone who supports our troops no matter how you feel about our leaders. Troublemakers, gossips. trolls, liars, etc are NOT welcome here. Posts that defame, discuss ozone, humiliate and/or intimidate other posters or the webmaster will be deleted without notice or comment. Please read the rules on the Main Page, thank you!
And what’s wrong with discussing ozone??? I for one believe that ozone therapy is somewhat clouded in a scientific fog...
I spend most of my waking hours somewhere in the ozone.
I love the smell of ozone in the morning...I hate breathing air I can’t see.
Aw yes! The 60s and 70s in the LA Basin.
Days of Smog Alerts, Crankcase Devices and the dreaded Inversion Layer!
Here in Florida I no longer can see the air that I breath and I gotta say, " I Don't know how to act"!
jaqui hussiebn will get all of his programs in the first 20 days of his reign for there will be no one to object. there will be no republicans in the house and the senate. They will dissappear when he takes control and gets his private army in place. And the large part of the american people will no longer exist when you people here and every other democrat in this nation will point out any and everyone who may try to assert their rights as americans. One of the first things i think the ONE will do is order the U S armed forces to throw down their weapons so they will be easily killed by the islamic terrorists. And you guys will applaud that.
Duane: If you look backover the last several posts, you will see the subject has changed to something lighter. The bus has left the station and you have missed it Ozone Breath.
Hey Quano, when all of that happens, I am sure that you will be among the first to go - so would you do the rest of us a favor? When you first catch on that they are after you, send out a warning message.
You can be the canary in the coal mine for the rest of us. Okay?
jaqui you will be there right behind the ONE's private SS. You will be to Hussien as adilf eochman was to adolf hitler. You will be pointing out the americans who dared disagree with the ONE. From a safe distance behind the islamic fascists. That was how himmler operated fron a safe distance.
Come on now, Quano, do try to keep the evil villians in your wild flights of fancy straight. Am I supposed to be Eichmann or Himmler? Different fellows, different jobs.
Now its very Clear.
"The Ones Private SS"!
I presume these are his private Armies that are Hid threw out the United States in SECRET Training Camps ready to swoop down on the "Real Americans" and take all their Guns away when "The One Gives the Secret Signal". Then they have orders to take away all of the "Little Children's" Bicycles and playgrounds so they will never experience the Joy of playing like children of the past did.
What will this country be? No Real Americans,No Children Playing, no Butterflies, no birds chirping (Well Maybe Buzzards), no cows lazily scratching their A$$es on an Environmentally Safe Exxon Oil Drilling rig under the Blue Montana Sky!
Does all this mean that the Black people aren't going to Riot and Burn down the big cities after all? Or is that still going to happen?
Am I the only one or Does anyone else hear the theme song to "The Twilight Zone" Playing in the Background???