Yes, share on this forum, so Mike can steal your marbles and use them against you too.
Can you really blame me?
Some say I've lost my marbles; maybe I'm just trying to replace the ones I lost!
I'll keep the good ones...you can keep the ones that suck.
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
Yes, share on this forum, so Mike can steal your marbles and use them against you too.
Dear Mike
First of all, I am not a person to wrote as name of not mike. Whenever, I want to post any subject, I will use my name. And hope you understand as I say.
I want to talk anybody for any subject if possible. I met you total 6 times before. However, I do not have chance to discuss with you seriously.
When you ask the vote in skokie,frankly I do not have any futher information what you talk to me.At that period, I do not know who is who cause I just involved this movement.That's why I said " What vote?, and I don't think that now is the time to discuss these things"
The second thing is I called you. So you can not say "you never called". Remember,when we met at Flaming Gril, I asked it is difficult to contact you even I can not left message because your phone message has been full.As I remember I have been called you last year more than 4 times before you first vote and after vote. But I completely failed.But you didn't return call me. You said you do not get a call from unknown no. That was your answer. Remember?
Therefore you can not say that "you never called". When you blame someone, will you take a fact first?
With this reason, your question for " why are you so reructant?" is wrong. But if I gave you this impression,I accept it cause your impression is yours.
I am ready to talk with anyone. So you can call me anytime and we do not have any reason to blame personally. Don't you agree?
However, if you and I have a diffrent idea for movement, we can argue it both together and critisize it based on the respecting of human being.
After I involve this movement, I have been found some of people do not recognize the criticism between working for movement and personal character. I hope you undestand what I want to say. Steve.
mike foulks should have been more democratic by appointing himself as secretary and picking the oldest person to be the president. why doesn't peter enger post his title while bashing mike foulks like he normally does? could it be to conceal the obvious hypocrisy?
This is called "sarcasm", and a fine example of it by "gerry" for any of you out there who are too stupid to see Peter Enger's "reporting" for what it is...
Hyper-hypocrisy.
Gerry, don't you know, Peter Enger isn't an obviously-White guy?!?
He's really a Korean underneath his white-skin!?!
That's just how Asians do "democracy"!?!? (According to Peter Enger, that is.)
Let's not even get started about the hypocrisy of the AFSC "sponsoring" the UTCC and its newsletter when remembering the overstated influences the Chicago Dispatcher's many advertisers or "City" has on George Lutfallah that Prateek Sampat and Peter Enger among others propagandized because they "don't want to answer questions".
The funniest part is that if the UTCC really flexed all of its "organizing muscle", they might have "defeated me" in the latest CCO election.
Maybe they figured out that they really couldn't. Nah, they're too deluded to even admit to themselves that I have comparable influence or relevance.
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
mike foulks should have been more democratic by appointing himself as secretary and picking the oldest person to be the president. why doesn't peter enger post his title while bashing mike foulks like he normally does? could it be to conceal the obvious hypocrisy?
Subject: Sticky: Re: direct demagoguery - directly
Name: Luke Miskof
Date Posted: Jun 1, 08 - 12:00 PM
Message: The “man” is a demagogue?
I think that is much too BIG of a word to WASTE on the likes of a small person such as is Foulks.
(I am not making this up like mike makes up stuff, the following is from Wikipedia, the free on-line encyclopedia.)
DEMAGOGY (also demagoguery) refers to a political strategy for obtaining and gaining political power by appealing to the POPULAR PREJUDICES, emotions, FEARS and expectations of the public -- typically via impassioned rhetoric and PROPAGANDA, and often using nationalist or populist themes.
American social critic and humorist H. L. Mencken, known for his "definitions" of terms, defined a demagogue as "ONE WHO WILL PREACH DOCTRINES HE KNOWS TO BE UNTRUE TO MEN HE KNOWS TO BE IDIOTS."
Though this definition emphasizes the USE OF LYING and FALSEHOODS, some point out that demagogy does not always require such. A skilled demagogues often need to use only special emphasis by which an uncritical listener will be led to draw the desired conclusion themselves, seeding a belief that is self-reinforced rather than one based on fact or truth.
Demagogues may make use of LOGICAL FALLACIES, though persuasion may require NO USE OF LOGIC. While it may not rely heavily upon OUTRIGHT LIES, the use of HALF-TRUTHS, OMISSIONS, and DISTORTIONS are what define demagogy — it is, in essence, giving BAD-FAITH ARGUMENTS for the purpose of political GAIN.
Another famous usage was by the aging Erich Ludendorff, who was for a time a strong supporter of the early rise of ADOLF HITLER and NAZI GERMANY. After learning of Hitler's appointment as Chancellor, he expressed his disappointment to German President Paul von Hindenburg:
"By appointing Hitler Chancellor of the Reich, you have handed over our sacred German Fatherland to one of the greatest demagogues of all time. I prophesy to you this evil man will plunge our Reich into the abyss and will inflict immeasurable woe on our nation. Future generations will curse you in your grave for this action."
Hitler indeed would become regarded as perhaps the epitome of a demagogue, having successfully risen to power through APPEALS TO THE ETHNIC AND NATIONALISTIC PREJUDICES AND VANITIES of the German people —EXPLOITING a political base of EMBITTERED AND MISLED war veterans and nationalists and directing blame at minority and other CONVENIENT SCAPEGOATS ("Dolchstosslegende"). Hitler then consolidated his power through means of FEAR AND INTIMIDATION, and TARGETED KILLING of political dissidents and intellectuals.
Some of Mike's documented methods and means:
NOT INVOLVING VIOLATIONS OF LOGIC
APPLES AND ORANGES -- mixing of incomparable quantities. For example, "our government has increased social spending by 5 billion dollars, while the previous government increased it only by 0.4 percent." The latter sounds like less, but one cannot be sure without an absolute value.
HALF-TRUTH -- making statements that are true only in a strict and relatively meaningless sense. For example, "the opposition have accused us of cutting foreign aid, but actually our government has increased foreign aid by 500 million dollars," not mentioning that (adjusted for inflation) the allocated funds have in fact gone down.
FALSE AUTHORITY -- relying on the general authority of a person who is not proficient in the discussed topic. For example, "the professor read my book, and liked it very much," omitting the fact that it was a professor of chemistry who read a book on anthropology.
INVOLVING VIOLATION OF LOGIC
FALSE DILEMMA -- assuming that there are only two possible opinions on a given topic. For example, "You're either with us or against us...," ignoring the possibility of a neutral position or divergence.
DEMONIZATION -- identifying others as a mortal threat. Often this involves SCAPEGOATING -- blaming others for one's own problems. This is often advanced by using vague terms to identify the opposition group and then stereotyping that group. This allows the demagogue to exaggerate this group's influence and ascribe any trait to them by identifying that trait in any individual in the group. This method can be aided by constructing a false dilemma that portrays opposition groups as having a value system that is the polar opposite of one's own, as opposed to simply having different priorities. This method was incorporated by the Nazi regime to gain the general support of the public when it began to initiate its anti-Semitic policies.
STRAW MAN -- mischaracterizing the opposing position and then arguing against the mischaracterization.
LOADED QUESTION -- posing a question with an implied position that the opponent does not have. "When did you stop taking bribes?"
ARGUMENTS UNRELATED TO A DISCUSSION
UNRELATED FACTS -- bringing unrelated facts that sound in favor of the speaker's agenda. For example, marking a vegetable or cereal product as "cholesterol free". Since cholesterol is only found in animal products, such labeling does not actually distinguish this product from similar competitors.
EMOTIONAL APPEAL OR PERSONAL ATTACK -- attempting to bring a discussion to an emotional level. For example, "Everyone is against me!", "Can't I be right just once?", "You're stupid!", "You are Racist!" or just the classic retort "Shut up!"
Other sources:
President Bush: “You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.”
President Lincoln: “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
All this seems to define most of the members of the UTCC to a "T".
I'll deliberately omit "Chairman" Fayez Khozinder from scorn because he doesn't deserve any guilt-by-association.
"Documented", Wolfie?
You didn't quote me once after any of your examples.
The narcissist in me is getting psycho!
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Subject: Sticky: Re: direct demagoguery - directly
Name: Luke Miskof
Date Posted: Jun 1, 08 - 12:00 PM
Message: The “man” is a demagogue?
I think that is much too BIG of a word to WASTE on the likes of a small person such as is Foulks.
(I am not making this up like mike makes up stuff, the following is from Wikipedia, the free on-line encyclopedia.)
DEMAGOGY (also demagoguery) refers to a political strategy for obtaining and gaining political power by appealing to the POPULAR PREJUDICES, emotions, FEARS and expectations of the public -- typically via impassioned rhetoric and PROPAGANDA, and often using nationalist or populist themes.
American social critic and humorist H. L. Mencken, known for his "definitions" of terms, defined a demagogue as "ONE WHO WILL PREACH DOCTRINES HE KNOWS TO BE UNTRUE TO MEN HE KNOWS TO BE IDIOTS."
Though this definition emphasizes the USE OF LYING and FALSEHOODS, some point out that demagogy does not always require such. A skilled demagogues often need to use only special emphasis by which an uncritical listener will be led to draw the desired conclusion themselves, seeding a belief that is self-reinforced rather than one based on fact or truth.
Demagogues may make use of LOGICAL FALLACIES, though persuasion may require NO USE OF LOGIC. While it may not rely heavily upon OUTRIGHT LIES, the use of HALF-TRUTHS, OMISSIONS, and DISTORTIONS are what define demagogy — it is, in essence, giving BAD-FAITH ARGUMENTS for the purpose of political GAIN.
Another famous usage was by the aging Erich Ludendorff, who was for a time a strong supporter of the early rise of ADOLF HITLER and NAZI GERMANY. After learning of Hitler's appointment as Chancellor, he expressed his disappointment to German President Paul von Hindenburg:
"By appointing Hitler Chancellor of the Reich, you have handed over our sacred German Fatherland to one of the greatest demagogues of all time. I prophesy to you this evil man will plunge our Reich into the abyss and will inflict immeasurable woe on our nation. Future generations will curse you in your grave for this action."
Hitler indeed would become regarded as perhaps the epitome of a demagogue, having successfully risen to power through APPEALS TO THE ETHNIC AND NATIONALISTIC PREJUDICES AND VANITIES of the German people —EXPLOITING a political base of EMBITTERED AND MISLED war veterans and nationalists and directing blame at minority and other CONVENIENT SCAPEGOATS ("Dolchstosslegende"). Hitler then consolidated his power through means of FEAR AND INTIMIDATION, and TARGETED KILLING of political dissidents and intellectuals.
Some of Mike's documented methods and means:
NOT INVOLVING VIOLATIONS OF LOGIC
APPLES AND ORANGES -- mixing of incomparable quantities. For example, "our government has increased social spending by 5 billion dollars, while the previous government increased it only by 0.4 percent." The latter sounds like less, but one cannot be sure without an absolute value.
HALF-TRUTH -- making statements that are true only in a strict and relatively meaningless sense. For example, "the opposition have accused us of cutting foreign aid, but actually our government has increased foreign aid by 500 million dollars," not mentioning that (adjusted for inflation) the allocated funds have in fact gone down.
FALSE AUTHORITY -- relying on the general authority of a person who is not proficient in the discussed topic. For example, "the professor read my book, and liked it very much," omitting the fact that it was a professor of chemistry who read a book on anthropology.
INVOLVING VIOLATION OF LOGIC
FALSE DILEMMA -- assuming that there are only two possible opinions on a given topic. For example, "You're either with us or against us...," ignoring the possibility of a neutral position or divergence.
DEMONIZATION -- identifying others as a mortal threat. Often this involves SCAPEGOATING -- blaming others for one's own problems. This is often advanced by using vague terms to identify the opposition group and then stereotyping that group. This allows the demagogue to exaggerate this group's influence and ascribe any trait to them by identifying that trait in any individual in the group. This method can be aided by constructing a false dilemma that portrays opposition groups as having a value system that is the polar opposite of one's own, as opposed to simply having different priorities. This method was incorporated by the Nazi regime to gain the general support of the public when it began to initiate its anti-Semitic policies.
STRAW MAN -- mischaracterizing the opposing position and then arguing against the mischaracterization.
LOADED QUESTION -- posing a question with an implied position that the opponent does not have. "When did you stop taking bribes?"
ARGUMENTS UNRELATED TO A DISCUSSION
UNRELATED FACTS -- bringing unrelated facts that sound in favor of the speaker's agenda. For example, marking a vegetable or cereal product as "cholesterol free". Since cholesterol is only found in animal products, such labeling does not actually distinguish this product from similar competitors.
EMOTIONAL APPEAL OR PERSONAL ATTACK -- attempting to bring a discussion to an emotional level. For example, "Everyone is against me!", "Can't I be right just once?", "You're stupid!", "You are Racist!" or just the classic retort "Shut up!"
Other sources:
President Bush: “You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.”
President Lincoln: “You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Still stealing marbles.
You're still using an anagram of my name as an alias, moron, pay attention.
-M.i.k.e. F.o.u.l.k.s., not l.u.k.e. M.i.s.k.o.F.!
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Still stealing marbles.
There is nothing LESS DEMOCRATIC than Mikey, accept his appointing himself and staging a fake election with blank ballots and bribing people to vote.
Hey, did I get a vote? A gave a wino a big bottle Old Rebel Yell.
Of course everyone has the right to use a pen name or handle and there is no "secrecy" or hiding" or "hypocrisy" by not posting one's real name or title of any organization one may be involved with.
That's one of those "non-logical argument" ie., BS of the highest order.
There is no "obvious hypocrisy" other than Foulks trying to pretend he is a human being.
Trying to have a discussion here is like throwing gasoline on fire to try to put it out.
Balst from the past:
Posted Dec 3, 07 - "The young man is running his head into a wall as far as I can tell - it's a bit like a bull in the ring after the Picadors have riled him up. The harm he does to his cause, and that of all people of good will, is unfortunate - hate is always recognized for what it is; most sensible people disrespect haters."
"My sincere hope is that he might wake up to what he is doing to shoot his organization in its collective foot. Before he hopelessly trashes his future credibility before the Transportation Committee, he should think before shooting off his mouth spewing venom that hurts no one."
"Judging from his continued rantings, these comments are likely to fall on deaf ears. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, and he won't carry this on the further; that he will recognize the need to battle with enemies rather than allies."
The previous post is from Mr. Presiddont's favorite attorney.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Balst from the past:
Posted Dec 3, 07 - "The young man is running his head into a wall as far as I can tell - it's a bit like a bull in the ring after the Picadors have riled him up. The harm he does to his cause, and that of all people of good will, is unfortunate - hate is always recognized for what it is; most sensible people disrespect haters."
"My sincere hope is that he might wake up to what he is doing to shoot his organization in its collective foot. Before he hopelessly trashes his future credibility before the Transportation Committee, he should think before shooting off his mouth spewing venom that hurts no one."
"Judging from his continued rantings, these comments are likely to fall on deaf ears. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, and he won't carry this on the further; that he will recognize the need to battle with enemies rather than allies."
Wolfgang J. Weiss,
Thanks for the "blast from the past"!
December 3, 2007? Let's set the way-back machine a little further...
A perfect segue into rarely-seen before e-from my "least-favorite lawyer", Donald S. Nathan.
Enjoy reading, everyone!
-Mike Foulks, President, Chicago Cabdriver Organization (CCO)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
The previous post is from Mr. Presiddont's favorite attorney.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Balst from the past:
Posted Dec 3, 07 - "The young man is running his head into a wall as far as I can tell - it's a bit like a bull in the ring after the Picadors have riled him up. The harm he does to his cause, and that of all people of good will, is unfortunate - hate is always recognized for what it is; most sensible people disrespect haters."
"My sincere hope is that he might wake up to what he is doing to shoot his organization in its collective foot. Before he hopelessly trashes his future credibility before the Transportation Committee, he should think before shooting off his mouth spewing venom that hurts no one."
"Judging from his continued rantings, these comments are likely to fall on deaf ears. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, and he won't carry this on the further; that he will recognize the need to battle with enemies rather than allies."
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:18:00 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, barbj2799@comcast.net, NYTWA1@aol.com, Blount86@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, george@chicagodispatcher.com, Harrowgate@aol.com, naim23@gmail.com, psampat@afsc.org, kabahay606@yahoo.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net, melissacci@yahoo.com
Mike Foulks is obviously a bright man, a good writer and he seems to want to know what's in it for you to be working toward organizing cab drivers. He wants to know where you've been, what you do now and why you're concerned about the industry. In short, he wants you to drop your trousers so you can be held up to public scrutiny.
Why on earth would you do that?
Foulks is just going to have to understand that there are some people out there who don't have any direct gain to realize by involving themselves in winning some results for drivers. There are some people who just want to give of themselves. It's something they just have to do.
Some such people don't want to get into the limelight. They get enough satisfaction from seeing results that follow from working together. Many people from countries where people don't routinely work together have a hard time understanding why other people from countries where millions act in consort get real pleasure when they see the job done. It's what built the "Great Wall" among other things. It's what brought the British to their knees in South Asia in the late '40's.
My recommendation is that you keep on keeping on - work as you do with others like you to build an organization that can win the things drivers in CHICAGO need: a significant meter increase, periodic review of meter rates to take into account rapid rises in gasoline rates, limitation of lease fees, medical insurance, a pension plan, and on and on and on.
THESE AREN'T PIPE DREAMS FOLKS.
Let Yi Tang and others like him do their thing.
Donald Nathan
former c/l $11473
In a message dated 10/23/2007 10:44:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
Is there anyone who knows better what Mike is beefing about? Are we all fighting for "Respect & Dignity" here?
Please enlighten me if you could!
Yi
---------------------------------------------------------
Re: This is the best I have read so far...
Something Money Can’t Buy ----- Dignity and Respectþ
“The people who do this job are desperate,” Professor Hodges said. When an incentive like yesterday’s special fares comes along, “you don’t have to be a Marxist to understand that that will breed strikebreakers.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/nyregion/23nyc.html?ref=nyregion
Yi Tang-
Thank you for your numerous postings containing links to sites with information about what is happening in NYC. While I will always contend that Chicago and New York are fundamentally different taxi business enviroments, we should pay attention to what is happening in NYC, but take enough care to contrast and compare that with what is happening here with these fundamental differences in mind. Simply said, "Chicago is not New York City. (Thank God.)".
I have noticed that both you and Wolfgang Weiss like to interlace your more pratical postings with philosophical quotes and metaphysical statements. Too many of these can lead a conversation astray into the ashtrays what divides us and away from the dinner plate of what we agree on. At least you have given us a lot to chew on instead of blowing smoke.
Could you please post a short bio of yourself so that we can better understnad where you are coming from? When I attended that ridiculous meeting with Prateek Sampat at UNITE-HERE, I think you said that you used to be a cabdriver, but that you are not one now. You gave me a ride over to Carriage Cab in an immaculate, white Town Car limo. Are you a cabdriver or a limo driver? What do you hope to accomplish and what is your interest with organizing cabdrivers?
Thanks again, Yi, for your contributions.
-Mike Foulks
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 20:02:04 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, barbj2799@comcast.net, NYTWA1@aol.com, Blount86@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, george@chicagodispatcher.com, Harrowgate@aol.com, naim23@gmail.com, psampat@afsc.org, kabahay606@yahoo.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net, melissacci@yahoo.com
In a message dated 10/23/2007 6:53:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
I feel sad about him today begging in the City Hall.
"Give us 5 percent, give us 10 percent. . . . Make a compromise and give us something," driver Mike Foulks said.
If I was wrong, please feel free to correct me.
Yi
You are wrong, Yi - whatever gets done, no one can be too proud to beg for relief even if you can characterize what he did as begging.
Although I wasn't there, it takes courage to sit before that committee and express oneself. Foulks is not to be criticized for whatever he said. Even a token rate increase would help a desperate situation.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 21:58:36 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, barbj2799@comcast.net, NYTWA1@aol.com, Blount86@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, george@chicagodispatcher.com, Harrowgate@aol.com, naim23@gmail.com, psampat@afsc.org, kabahay606@yahoo.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net, melissacci@yahoo.com
Thank you for this link, Yi. Great story. I only wish we could clone a few of those brave men and women to organize here in Chicago. It makes me proud for those I've served over the years to know that spirit does live here, and the sight of those demonstrators should be played over and over for drivers here to see.
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:25:40 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 10/24/2007 5:29:16 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Thank you, Mr. Nathan.
You are welcome, Mr. Foulks.
Yi is not completely wrong. I believe he read a Tribune short posted on the internet which contains the quote. (Another example of why not to believe everything you read.)
"All the news that's fit to print"
I told the Transporation Committe that if they felt that 25% was too high then they should compromise it with their wisdom. I said that whether they give us 25%, 20%, 15%, 10% or whatever amount they see fit, they cannot give us nothing.
That's what I do with Juries. That's what I used to do with passengers in my taxi when the topic of tips came up. I was hoping for 25%, but I was always willing to take "20%, 15%, 10% or whatever amount" they saw fit. I always felt I ought not to be stiffed.
I then looked Mr. Reilly in the eye and told him that if the Council decides to give us nothing, then the next strike, demonstration, rally or march would be extremely disruptive to the traffic flow of his ward, which he had expressed concerns about when defending the ridiculous ticketing of drivers who are doing their jobs up and down Michigan Avenue and the like.
That tack was probably counterproductive, speaking as a lawyer who tries to persuade Juries to award money to clients who have been hurt.
I started to continue by noting the media coverage judging the strike of July 31st as being ineffective because the Loop was unaffected and asserted my honest belief that the Loop will be targeted and affected next time, when Mr. Reyboras raise his voice and said, "Don't come here and threaten us ..." which is when I apologized for any exaggerated tone he might be misinterpreting.
He was only expressing what the lot of them were probably thinking. Respectfully speaking, you stepped over the line, and that was an unfortunate choice.
I then quickly broke down the rest of my testimony into the simple fact of the dramatic gas price increase necessitating a meter increase of some amount, and then basically agreed with all of George and George's proposal except for the one which asked that independent operators not be required to take credit cards by arguing that either all of us shall take them or none of us in consideration of not confusing the passengers.
This might well not have been heard after threatening the Committee members.
I elaborated on the fundamental problems of requiring credit card acceptance and indicated a need to improve the requirements on the cab companies to provide a quicker and more reliable system. I then redirected the Committee to carefully consider the personal testimony of Sayeed, who said that the longer and longer hours are destroying his family life.
Good - important points. Who can drive 14 hours a day 7 days a week in a world with $3/gallon gas?
I agree with your contention that sometimes courage is need to sit in public and speak, but let me assure you that I do not need to summon that kind of courage anymore as I have spoken to all kinds of people in all kinds of settings in my vocation as a cabdriver and elsewhere.
So too have I - 200,000 miles of cab driving and now 32 years of the practice of law, all of it in court before Juries in over 15,000 personal injury and workers compensation cases most of it related to taxi drivers and the taxi industry.
I wish that more of the cabdrivers who spend a lot of time speaking the truth with each other would come and participate in this part of the political process. I intend to make my wishes come true.
Good for you. Good for drivers in general.
I have read some of your messages to other drivers and I thank you for your input, but let me clarify my position of wanting a Cabdriver-Only Organization:
My chauffeur's license number was 11473. I drove from 1968 to 1975, first for Yellow, then American United, then Flash. My first job in civil practice was as the associate for Sherman Dickholtz on the Flash Cab lot. I was one of eight lawyers who represented cab drivers as defendants for Delta Casualty (mostly Flash affiliates) from 1977 to 1995. I represented drivers from American United from offices at 2353 W. Belmont from 1996 to 1998. Over the years, I have represented 7,500 cab drivers as injured victims. I still represent them, but now I limit my practice to catastrophic injuries because I'm semi-retired.
It is much more likely that an outsider has selfish interests incongruent with those of insiders.
The insider-outsider business doesn't cut it if you give it some thought.
I don't need doodly squat any more. I've done pretty well. Half the time I am in my home in the hills east of Monterey, California. My wife says I have too much free time, and I'm trying to give some of it away. You don't want it? Why the hell not? You have nothing I want other than the rights you need and don't have. And I don't think you're any more an "insider" than anyone else.
When I was a kid growing up in New York, there used to be billboards up everywhere depicting a beautiful black guy with a big toothy white smile. He was holding up a huge corned beef sandwich in one hand. Below it read: "YOU DON'T NEED TO BE JEWISH TO ENJOY LEVY'S RYE BREAD".
Do I make my point, Mr. Foulks?
I am not taking the time to judge you,
I hope to gosh not. Then I'd think you just prejudiced. You haven't met me. You don't know jack squat about me other than for what you've read or heard said.
but I have taken the time to judge the AFSC TWO Project and Prateek Sampat and have reached a conclusion that he is no good until proven otherwise.
I'm not here to defend the kid. He's not very mature, however, and it shows in ways that really put a lot of people off. I'm three times his age, so he ****** me off too - maybe more so than you because I've invested my entire 40 year career into the cab industry.
I will read anything you send me, but please do not be offended if my priorities delay an appropriate response.
I expect absolutely nothing from you. If we interact, it's going to be toward the end of winning the things drivers need. Your priorities aren't any different from mine. I just have more time because I'm semi-retired.
I am not in this for the money,
I'm not either. I stand to gain nothing. I'm not looking for more business and need nothing at this point other than to enjoy things that are important to me in this life.
so therefore my time is that much more valuable.
No more valuable than mine is, young man.
I would like to meet you in person some point in the future at our mutual convenience, but please do not seek me out; one of my weaknesses is my politeness. I know you are sophisticated enough to get what I'm trying to express.
I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. I feel no compulsion to meet you in person, although it is likely to happen unless I get sick of trying to give away my time pro bono publico. I'm not the kind who sits in the shadows, but I have no particular reason to seek you out any more so than you do me. I do hope to have been polite in replying to your comments and not to have given offense.
I know you are sophisticated enough to get what I'm trying to express, Mr. Foulks.
Should we meet, however, I'd far prefer to be called by my first name: "Don". Nobody calls me "Slim" any more, but my first name is qutie polite enough. Mr. Nathan died 12 years ago.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:31:35 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 10/24/2007 5:46:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
A quick question- Did you mean to write "THESE AREN'T PIPE DREAMS FOLKS" as written or did you mean to write "THESE AREN"T PIPE DREAMS FOULKS". I hope you understand that my confusion about this and your answer is needed to determine a proper reply.
You evidently give me little credit for my wit, Mr. Foulks. I tend to be rather folksy in my approach, and the Juries and judges have enjoyed it over the years. I was pretty good in my days as a driver too, if I may say it.
Just call me good ole' reliable Nathan, Nathan, Nathan ...
Our collective hopes aren't pipe dreams. They're attainable if we organize and work together to common goals. Quote me if you choose or ignore me if you reject my free help - no strings attached.
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:26:42 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 10/24/2007 10:05:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Yes, yes, yes.
Read my question again and answer either A or B, because you might be implying the opinion that either all of us (FOLKS) or just FOULKS believes that "THESE" are "PIPE DREAMS". This is not the first time that this synomatic problem has occurred in a serious discussion (and also at the ends of a Looney Tunes cartoons). Whether its A or B significantly reflects what I receive as to be your meaning. Please respond simply and ASAP. Thank you.
I ain't dat bright. Take it as ya like. But rest assured, I mean you no harm, and I'm not looking to pick your pocket either. I don't need it.
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:37:05 EDT
Subject: Re: What Mike is barking about? (Cabmarket.com)
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
I shouldn't be cute - I meant what I wrote. I guess that translates to "A", but I'm not sure what choice "B" would be. Does it really matter?
My point was to suggest that I recognize you to be a talented man - there are lots of them attending the University of Four Wheels - and that you ought not to be criticized for doing the best you could in an unfriendly forum.
Actually, as you characterize it, you did as well as you possibly could. It's just unfortunate any sparks flew back and forth with committee members. That said, I offer my respect for whatever little it's worth. I've been a communicator for a living for the entirety of my adult life, and I'm still learning.
Don Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:02:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Cigars for Victory
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 10/26/2007 7:47:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Mr. Nathan, (please forgive me if I use that now, or from time to time, as I believe that sometimes familiarity breeds contempt and formality fosters respect.),
I don't really give a rat's patootie if you hold me in contempt, and I have even less concern for whether you choose to respect me. I don't NEED you. You might be of use in achieving goals that include providing financial relief for drivers of public passenger vehicles in Chicago, establishing some sort of group health insurance plan for them, setting up a pension plan that they can fall back on if old or permanently disabled, for their safety on the streets, that they not be exploited the further with needless regulation, etc.
I have no gain to realize from this effort - no stake in it. You won't even find a correct number for me in the phone book: the one listed connects to my fax machine. My practice is limited only to what I choose to handle, and most of that is for lawyers from all over the Midwest on referral.
You might want to work with me. You might not. I am not looking to lead you. And I am not seeking a leader to follow. I have my uses - a good lawyer does have his uses when there's trouble or when solutions have to be hatched. A good lawyer knows how to preserve secrets and confidences - that's what attorney client privilege is all about. And a good lawyer donates some of his time for the benefit of the public.
The A.R.D.C. requires we lawyers declare how much time we devote to pro bono work every year when we renew our licenses.
I prefer to give time to causes I support than to donate money. My kids are still sucking at my pockets. But I do have time. You want it? Justify it, and you'll get some of it. Don't, and I just give it to someone else who convinces me its worth giving it to him or her.
You claim to have goals. Some of them I have noted. On balance, I know little of what you are trying to accomplish. If you choose to enter into some sort of dialogue about those goals, you can rest assured your confidences are going to be preserved to my grave. If you choose not to do so, that's kewl to me too. I can be a source of intelligence if you like, and you can pass on it if you choose. That's what Art Dickholtz and Big Tony Bottalla used me for in different contexts.
Like I said - lawyers have their uses, especially so the ones who know what it is to drive a cab. Keep it in mind that I logged 200,000 miles of client counseling before taking an oath as an attorney and counselor at law.
Is that clear enough to you, Mr. Foulks?
The reason I was so persistent in getting a straight answer from you is that I really couldn't conclude one way or the other and because I have use the words 'pipe dreams' to describe some aspects of people's hopes for the result of organizing. I used this phrase not so much to completely dissuade them from working towards any of those goals, but more so to redirect their energies to laying a foundation instead imagining the view from the upper floors.
I wasn't using the phrase as a shibboleth. My policy is to say exactly what I mean to say. English has it's limitations because of the ambiguities of its phrasings. But I couldn't opt to express it in French which is much more precise (the language of diplomacy for that reason) because too few people are fluent in it.
Please try to limit your use of 'FOLKS' to prevent anyone else from any unnecessary confusion.
I'll be especially sensitive to it under the circumstances.
I'm glad the tone of everybody's correspondence has changed.
In what sense? We all have common goals. Perhaps you're the one coming to understand that.
I will always read what people send me unless it tends to be tedious garbage, but I won't always be able to reply immediately or even at all at times. Be sure that I am reading what you send very carefully at the moment.
That's encouraging. But don't be solipsistic about it, Mr. Foulks. I'm not crafting my thoughts with just you in mind. You are obviously a bright man, and I intend to reach you too, but I'm writing for the benefit of ALL of the public that drives for a living in Chicago and the greater Metro area.
Let me clarify my 'insider/outsider' position: it's not that I don't believe that all outsiders are bad or even unnecessary, it's just that I can more quickly judge an insiders worth or more easily investigate an insider.
I think that's plain old unadulterated bull****. Arthur Dickholtz stopped driving a cab in 1947. By the time he died in 1995, he owned a lot of them (I cannot tell you specifics because of attorney-client privilege that didn't die with AD as far as I'm concerned). Dickholtz was NOT an "outsider", and you wouldn't have had any problem judging him - nor would he you because he had the mind of a wolf.
As much as I am a purist in believing that what you can build 'without' makes you leaner, meaner, and that much stronger, I am also a pragmatist who will ally with anybody in the most Machiavellian manner to accomplish the goals of my group. If Prateek has something of immeasurable value (like a stack of signatures) I will engage Prateek, whether he wants to or not, and whether he's aware of the double agency of the contact or not. Prateek should know now, as Indiana Jones was told, "There is nothing is this world which you can possess, which I cannot also take away."
You are wise to operate this way. But you need not to be inbred - That policy leads to genetic malformations. It's like royalty that suffered from hemophilia.
The only care I have for being portrayed as a beggar or a thief is how it suits my aims. Sometimes that suit is armor; and sometimes it is camoflauge. And sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
Point made. That's why I respect you, Mr. Foulks. Maybe someday you'll choose to call me Don, and I'll be allowed to call you Mike. You should come for a cup of coffee when next Yi Tang and I host a meeting on November 17. Maybe we'll accomplish nothing, but more likely than not we can measure one another more accurately face to face.
-MIKE FOULKS
Demerdard@aol.com wrote:
I shouldn't be cute - I meant what I wrote. I guess that translates to "A", but I'm not sure what choice "B" would be. Does it really matter?
My point was to suggest that I recognize you to be a talented man - there are lots of them attending the University of Four Wheels - and that you ought not to be criticized for doing the best you could in an unfriendly forum.
Actually, as you characterize it, you did as well as you possibly could. It's just unfortunate any sparks flew back and forth with committee members. That said, I offer my respect for whatever little it's worth. I've been a communicator for a living for the entirety of my adult life, and I'm still learning.
Don Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:07:37 EDT
Subject: Re: Cigars for Victory
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 10/26/2007 10:55:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Okay, Don,
Since we have now firmly established the price, I'll sincerely try to respect the offer.
Good.
Can you give me any free legal advice regarding the advantages or, more importantly, the disadvantages of maintaining an organizing group as a 'voluntary, non-profit, unincorporated association' as opposed to a registered non-profit association? Keep in mind that the collection of money would not be an authorized group activity.
Yes. My preference would be to do that in person, however. There are details I would want to get that might affect my opinion, and I find doing that on a piece by piece basis by way of e-mail to be grossly inefficient. i am leaving for San Jose on a flight tonight at 7:30 and won't be back until late on November 1 - my son, age 7, and I are going to "Trick or Treat" on Halloween which is of key import to me - have any kids? I've had five, and they remain the focus of my life. I'd suggest we get together on my return from California, and I'll be around from the 2nd to the 21st working 7 days a week.
Separately, could you provide any basic, written structure to guide a chairperson and a committee conducting a meeting which would include discussion and voting? Both of these would be very helpful to me.
I suppose I could - but "Roberts Rules of Order" is really an excellent resource, and I might design such a basic, written structure with the principles of this seminal work in front of me. Use of that guide doesn't have to be misused - abused.
-MIKE FOULKS
P.S. I've previously queried Tang about a meeting and I might want to do so before Nov. 17 if it becomes mutually convenient. I am too busy right now to even speculate as to when.
Your schedule isn't the only one to consider. I do still have 70 cases pending all over Northern Illinois: Cook, Du Page, Lake, McHenry, Kane, Winnebago, Carroll, Whiteside, Henry and Rock Island counties and the U.S.D.C.N.D.Ill, both eastern and western divisions along with several matters in Fulton County, Georgia where I am also licensed to practice law.
Perhaps you and he could suggest the where.
On a weekend day, you might drive 16 miles directly west of the Loop to meet at my office. I use the business center in my building: 1 Elm Creek Drive, Elmhurst. The parking is free, and it's easily accessible to all expressways. You can bring anyone you like. Weekends work just fine, and weeknights are just as good, especially so Tuesdays and Thursdays.
P.P.S. At the risk of sounding full of myself, I wouldn't need to look in a phone book to find your number. Let me balance that with 'permission' to call me Mike. My desire for formality is based on clarity; George WHO? (Mr. Kasp, Mr. Lutfallah.) WHICH Mike? (How many more percentage points do you think I could rely on when I found out I was the only 'MIKE' running in Melissa's election?) It also clarifies 'my guys' from everybody else.
I have several clients with your first name. Not a one of them is as facile on paper. I would recognize you in all likelihood just by the way you craft a sentence. Very likely, you would have no problem figuring out that it was "The Donald" who sent you a missive as opposed to, say, Donald Duck. I always say that children should be obscene and not absurd, and most of the people around me who consider my opinions worth hearing appreciate it.
Don Nathan
Demerdard@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/26/2007 7:47:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Mr. Nathan, (please forgive me if I use that now, or from time to time, as I believe that sometimes familiarity breeds contempt and formality fosters respect.),
I don't really give a rat's patootie if you hold me in contempt, and I have even less concern for whether you choose to respect me. I don't NEED you. You might be of use in achieving goals that include providing financial relief for drivers of public passenger vehicles in Chicago, establishing some sort of group health insurance plan for them, setting up a pension plan that they can fall back on if old or permanently disabled, for their safety on the streets, that they not be exploited the further with needless regulation, etc.
I have no gain to realize from this effort - no stake in it. You won't even find a correct number for me in the phone book: the one listed connects to my fax machine. My practice is limited only to what I choose to handle, and most of that is for lawyers from all over the Midwest on referral.
You might want to work with me. You might not. I am not looking to lead you. And I am not seeking a leader to follow. I have my uses - a good lawyer does have his uses when there's trouble or when solutions have to be hatched. A good lawyer knows how to preserve secrets and confidences - that's what attorney client privilege is all about. And a good lawyer donates some of his time for the benefit of the public.
The A.R.D.C. requires we lawyers declare how much time we devote to pro bono work every year when we renew our licenses.
I prefer to give time to causes I support than to donate money. My kids are still sucking at my pockets. But I do have time. You want it? Justify it, and you'll get some of it. Don't, and I just give it to someone else who convinces me its worth giving it to him or her.
You claim to have goals. Some of them I have noted. On balance, I know little of what you are trying to accomplish. If you choose to enter into some sort of dialogue about those goals, you can rest assured your confidences are going to be preserved to my grave. If you choose not to do so, that's kewl to me too. I can be a source of intelligence if you like, and you can pass on it if you choose. That's what Art Dickholtz and Big Tony Bottalla used me for in different contexts.
Like I said - lawyers have their uses, especially so the ones who know what it is to drive a cab. Keep it in mind that I logged 200,000 miles of client counseling before taking an oath as an attorney and counselor at law.
Is that clear enough to you, Mr. Foulks?
The reason I was so persistent in getting a straight answer from you is that I really couldn't conclude one way or the other and because I have use the words 'pipe dreams' to describe some aspects of people's hopes for the result of organizing. I used this phrase not so much to completely dissuade them from working towards any of those goals, but more so to redirect their energies to laying a foundation instead imagining the view from the upper floors.
I wasn't using the phrase as a shibboleth. My policy is to say exactly what I mean to say. English has it's limitations because of the ambiguities of its phrasings. But I couldn't opt to express it in French which is much more precise (the language of diplomacy for that reason) because too few people are fluent in it.
Please try to limit your use of 'FOLKS' to prevent anyone else from any unnecessary confusion.
I'll be especially sensitive to it under the circumstances.
I'm glad the tone of everybody's correspondence has changed.
In what sense? We all have common goals. Perhaps you're the one coming to understand that.
I will always read what people send me unless it tends to be tedious garbage, but I won't always be able to reply immediately or even at all at times. Be sure that I am reading what you send very carefully at the moment.
That's encouraging. But don't be solipsistic about it, Mr. Foulks. I'm not crafting my thoughts with just you in mind. You are obviously a bright man, and I intend to reach you too, but I'm writing for the benefit of ALL of the public that drives for a living in Chicago and the greater Metro area.
Let me clarify my 'insider/outsider' position: it's not that I don't believe that all outsiders are bad or even unnecessary, it's just that I can more quickly judge an insiders worth or more easily investigate an insider.
I think that's plain old unadulterated bull****. Arthur Dickholtz stopped driving a cab in 1947. By the time he died in 1995, he owned a lot of them (I cannot tell you specifics because of attorney-client privilege that didn't die with AD as far as I'm concerned). Dickholtz was NOT an "outsider", and you wouldn't have had any problem judging him - nor would he you because he had the mind of a wolf.
As much as I am a purist in believing that what you can build 'without' makes you leaner, meaner, and that much stronger, I am also a pragmatist who will ally with anybody in the most Machiavellian manner to accomplish the goals of my group. If Prateek has something of immeasurable value (like a stack of signatures) I will engage Prateek, whether he wants to or not, and whether he's aware of the double agency of the contact or not. Prateek should know now, as Indiana Jones was told, "There is nothing is this world which you can possess, which I cannot also take away."
You are wise to operate this way. But you need not to be inbred - That policy leads to genetic malformations. It's like royalty that suffered from hemophilia.
The only care I have for being portrayed as a beggar or a thief is how it suits my aims. Sometimes that suit is armor; and sometimes it is camoflauge. And sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
Point made. That's why I respect you, Mr. Foulks. Maybe someday you'll choose to call me Don, and I'll be allowed to call you Mike. You should come for a cup of coffee when next Yi Tang and I host a meeting on November 17. Maybe we'll accomplish nothing, but more likely than not we can measure one another more accurately face to face.
-MIKE FOULKS
Demerdard@aol.com wrote:
I shouldn't be cute - I meant what I wrote. I guess that translates to "A", but I'm not sure what choice "B" would be. Does it really matter?
My point was to suggest that I recognize you to be a talented man - there are lots of them attending the University of Four Wheels - and that you ought not to be criticized for doing the best you could in an unfriendly forum.
Actually, as you characterize it, you did as well as you possibly could. It's just unfortunate any sparks flew back and forth with committee members. That said, I offer my respect for whatever little it's worth. I've been a communicator for a living for the entirety of my adult life, and I'm still learning.
Don Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:05:05 EST
Subject: Re: The Road Ahead Intersects Skokie
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/4/2007 10:11:29 A.M. Central Standard Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Please let me continue to call you Mr. Nathan, but I wil stop if you insist...
As I said before: I don't give a rat's patootie what you decide to call me. If it makes you more comfortable to be formal, do as you will, Mr. Foulks.
I hope your Halloween was fun.
It was. My boy was a black cat - we have a whole bunch of them in the house, so it was fitting. I was dressed as a cross between Alice Cooper (or a portly Howard Stern) and Groucho Marx. We had over 120 kids come to our door. My wife was dressed as a witch - as usual - with a ground fogger and cauldron full of candy in hand. We kind of go all out for "Le Jour des Mortes".
It struck me that while the cabdrivers need a fare increase, the Republicans could use a FEAR increase, especially if Rudy is their guy.
In a separate e-mail, I'm going to send you an op-ed run in the New York Times by Paul Krugman about that sonofabitch, Giuliani.
I'm going to try to make it to the Skokie Village Hall for the discussion of the taxicab-parking ban up there. I've let Yi know that I'll likely be there.
Date for this? I don't live in Skokie. I'm not even Asian or Jewish, but it rankles me that a guy who owns a car with a top light might not even park in his driveway, much less in the street at the curb while he sleeps a couple of hours. I would never offer my two cents directly, but I'd sure be happy to give off the cuff advice at a hearing if my schedule permits it. I'll be in town till the 21st.
I would, of course, like to meet you there, but my focus would be more on the meeting than any business we would discuss.
That would be no place to discuss any business other than the subject matter of the meeting.
It would be better for me to plan to meet you at a more convenient place for you at a time when the need to get back in my cab and make some money would not be as pressing (such as one afternoon in the next few weeks.) I am planning to attend the November 17th meeting one way or the other, so I wouldn't stress about whether we actually meet before then or not. There is a long road ahead of all of us.
That's the most sensible time to meet and discuss things at some leisure.
Don Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 21:54:53 EST
Subject: Re: The Road Ahead Intersects Skokie
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/4/2007 8:38:00 P.M. Central Standard Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Quick reply... Monday, November 5th, 8pm... I'll let you know what happened if you dont' make it there...
I am assuming it's going to be at the Skokie Village
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 20:14:39 EST
Subject: Re: Possible meeting site
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/6/2007 6:23:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
I think that we could meet later in the evening one of these weekends at that Borders bookstore in Oak Brook just north of the mall just east of Rt. 83.
Sure is convenient for me. It's about a mile from my apartment building. I can accommodate a group of about a dozen max in the lounge area of my building. I have access to a comfortable conference room that can accommodate about half a dozen to eight as well. I do have to make advance arrangements, but it's not difficult to do so. Coffee and tea is free here.
You want to meet at Borders? That's fine with me. Most people are willing to come out to Oak Brook or Elmhurst because they're centrally located and about 10 miles west of the city limits.
Sorry I missed you in Skokie
You sensitized me. I felt that as a non-cabdriver, and a non-resident of Skokie, I had no standing to speak and I thought under the circumstances I ought not to attend as an "outsider". As I understand it from Yi Tang, the meeting was well attended by those who do have a stake in the matter, and evidently it went well. There were plenty of articulate people there; my presence would not have contributed much, if anything.
The issue is an easy one to hit out of the park. Any ordinance like the one in question would be easy to challenge in court.
Don (Nathan)
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:01:36 EST
Subject: Check out http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/02/opinion/02krugman.html?ex=1210050
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/02/opinion/02krugman.html?ex=1210050000&en=399bfaf526465017&ei=5087&excamp=mkt_at4
Dear Mr. Foulks:
This is the op-ed column I indicated I would send to you from the New York Times.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:11:03 EST
Subject: Re: Possible meeting with John Rees and Mike Foulks
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/12/2007 6:00:46 A.M. Central Standard Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
Any chance we could meet Monday 11/12 night or Tuesday 11/13 night? I'd like to introduce you to John Rees "Party Cabbie", who the City took unusual steps with to have him remove the decorations from the inside and outside of his cab.
I wish we could meet, but I already have appointments booked for both evenings with clients in pending cases. I could meet with the two of you on Wednesday or Friday afternoon at your convenience as long as it's out in Elmhurst and anytime after 1:00 P.M. But it might be easiest for the two of you to get together next Saturday at the meeting Yi Tang and I are going to host somewhere downtown in the afternoon. I'd be happy to show up a little early for it to meet privately with the two of you if you like.
My understanding is that Rees has not been cited at all by DCS for anything to do with "The Party Cab". The Commissioner isn't stupid. The bigger question for Rees is whether he wants to take steps to deck his cab out again as it was with the blessing of law. If so, then consideration has to be paid as to do that most efficiently. If Rees would like to do that through court action, I am more than willing to donate time to accomplish that goal - the only cost to him would be the court filing fees. It's idiotic not to allow the man to drive a decorated cab as long as it presents no threat to safety - and it obviously doesn't.
If on the other hand, you and John Rees are planning on seeking legal advice as to how to go forward with an organization that excludes a significant number of local cab drivers, I think it inappropriate to meet separately. I fully expect the meeting of 11/17 to be attended by both "Insiders" and "Outsiders". As "Insiders" your participation would be invaluable. My time is made available both to "Insiders" and "Outsiders" where the issues concern all drivers in the Metro area: the need for fair meter rates in the City; the need for regulated rates that are not undercut in certain of the suburbs; group health insurance; hospital savings accounts; group disability coverage; pension programs; and whatever else would benefit ALL drivers and bring down group rates.
An organization that administers such programs can be of great use. With premiums that generate commissions, the organization can be self-sustaining without ripping off the drivers. Some people call this kind of organization a "Union".
You two may not be interested in such things - you may see this kind of organization as some sort of a rip-off that's no better than what now you have. But what do you have now? Do you have health insurance? Where do you go for medical care if you fall sick - suffer a heart attack or a stroke or, worse yet, have a cancer that befalls you at age 35 or 40. My first wife died of cancer at age 42. You don't know when that kind of disaster can hit. Want to go to Stroger Hospital or Oak Forest for your care?
These issues propel my interest along with winning people like John Rees the right to deck out his cab the way he likes. I do hope to meet with you whether with Rees or without.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:47:39 EST
Subject: Re: Possible meeting with John Rees and Mike Foulks
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/12/2007 6:28:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
I'll communicate with John Rees.
I'm somewhat acquainted with Rees, although it's indirect. The Party Cab, #3877, is owned by Luxor, Inc. I represent Steve Lauria, the owns of the company behind that medallion. I need to make that disclosure to both you and Rees. My professional tie to Lauria is in respect to the collection of property damage, and I have worked for his various corporations for about 15 years. I see no conflict of interest between Rees and any of Lauria's corporations or with Lauria.
I think we would like to meet you before Saturday (in the afternoon- how about Wednesday, maybe at 7PM?) because the conversation might be a bit lenghtier and more productive than you might think.
7:00 P.M. may be the afternoon for you, but not for me. I expect to be having dinner with one of my daughters at about that time. If you would like to get together at about 3:00 P.M. or at 11:00 A.M., I can budget a sufficient amount of time to give to you both.
Rees is a very motivated individual beyond the personal issues with the "Party Cab" and we are not joined at the hip in our opinions, but we've found mutual respect for discussing our differences and have influenced each other's changing attitudes towards the entirety of this organizing effort. I want to make clear my "insider/outsider" postion clear...it has caused people to put words in my mouth or attribute opinions to me which I have not expressed...the decison-making on what drivers want should be entirely from the drivers... of course we would engage "outsiders" when the need is clearly defined by the "insiders". I want to discuss more with you about the incongruity of joining suburban, city, and limo drivers underneath one aegis.
-MIKE FOULKS
Let me hear from you.
Don Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:44:11 EST
Subject: Re: Possible meeting with John Rees and Mike Foulks
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/14/2007 6:58:03 A.M. Central Standard Time, chinatownmike@yahoo.com writes:
I've gotten drunk in the same bar as Steve, though I'm sure it would take an effort to get him to remember me considering how long ago that was.
I went to junior high and high school with Michael Douglas. He was the quarterback on the junior high football team. I was just a tackle, but at our 40th reunion he still remembered me. I haven't a clue who "Steve" might be, but perhaps there are famous ones whose last names I can't recall.
I think we attended the same high school but during different years.
I sat in history classes in college with Carol Mosley Braun, but she would have no memory of me.
I am maintaining a regular presence at Kabob Corner in Greektown from 3pm-4pm everyday until our CCO election on the 21st.
I am aware of this daily event - a good idea for organizing, and it's at a good time for the restaurant if it draws business in.
I think that Wednesday is now out of the running, but perhaps John and I can agree to meet you for an informal dinner at 5pm or so near your house, or an earlier one here near Greektown.
I'm happy to meet you at 5:00 P.M. today near here, but not for a dinner. It's just too early for me to eat. I have a conference room where we can get together if you like. I'm just to the north of Roosevelt, just to the south of Butterfield, just to the east of Route 83, just to the west of York Road. It's One Elm Creek Drive. If you do want to meet, call me at 1-888-NATHAN-1 and leave a message on the voice mail.
I didn't quite understand if your dinner with your daughters is blocking out just Wednesday or everyday.
I have three daughters, but only one lives in Chicago. We're getting together on Friday night for dinner, and likely it will be in Greektown because she lives not far from there. I get together with her about once a month, not that it should matter to you particularly what my personal family schedule is. I only mentioned it because I wouldn't have been able to meet with you on Friday. Tomorrow, I'm off to the opera; I couldn't meet with you on Thursday. You wanted to meet before Saturday's meeting, so I was just giving you my availability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:34:26 EST
Subject: Re: The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association Seeks Representatives
To: zybarwulf@comcast.net, pete@zelchenko.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, Jim4Safety@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, Sargamradio@aol.com, malik@ciogc.org, naim23@gmail.com, fkhozindar@yahoo.com, Rajalkhan@aol.com, rima@kapitanlaw.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, NYTWA1@aol.com, melissacci@yahoo.com, farid@ciogc.org
Gee --- I guess I'm an outsider again. As far as I know, I don't have a drop of Muslim blood, but I sure sympathize with these distant cousins of mine. Does being 3/8 Jewish help? I'm a child of Abraham too. Just the same, I'd volunteer time to help this group in a heartbeat if allowed.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/14/2007 12:11:30 A.M. Central Standard Time, zybarwulf@comcast.net writes:
From The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association Handout:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
On Thursday, November 1st 2007, we had our first meeting with the city's officials concerning the parking tickets we received while praying. From the city's side, there was Commissioner of the consumer service, N. Reyes and her assistant plus three officials from the Department of Aviation, three from the City of Chicago's Human Relations, one
from the City of Chicago's Arab Affair Committee, and one more from the Law Department from the City of Chicago.
From the driver's side there were six members, including Dr. Sattar, the president of the Muslim Community Center of Chicago.
This meeting tasted two hours, during which good and frank exchange of ideas about how we can reach a satisfactory conclusion, and both sides expressed their interest and insistent on keeping the flow of the cabs to the terminals free from all obstacles or blocking. Therefore, we urge all drivers not to park around the shelters, and keep the short-trip lane clear from all parking cabs.
Brothers; To follow with this endeavor with the city of Chicago, we have to organize ourselves, since we represent 65% of the driving force, and we must expand our steering committee. Therefore we need one representative and one alternative from each ethnic group, as a first step towards the establishment of 'The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association" so we can defend our legitimate interest in the long run. I urge all the groups to discuss this matter among themselves and when you finish your caucus and choose your representative and your alternative. Please be free to call and report your choices by calling this number: 312-343-5831. Wasalaamu-alaykum.
From: "Yi Tang"
To: demerdard@aol.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net, rajalkhan@aol.com, chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, "Adeem Aziz"
Subject: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:58:20 -0600
Hello, everyone!
Mr. Nathan and I are going to host our third monthly meeting at Kabob Corner, 760 W. Jackson, on this Saturday (November 17), at 2:30 p.m.. If you missed our last meeting, I wish that you are going to make it this time.
I wish that this forum would be kept open for everyone, and
Thanks all for your participations!
Yi Tang
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:37:06 EST
Subject: Re: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, NYTWA1@aol.com
CC: zybarwulf@comcast.net, Rajalkhan@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, ADEEM@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, subey21@hotmail.com, naim23@gmail.com, paenger@yahoo.com, princewinstonfield@yahoo.com, aaajiji@hotmail.com, kabahay606@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/17/2007 12:44:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, george@chicagodispatcher.com writes:
Mr. Tang,
Thank you for inviting me to your meeting. I don't want to waste my time again like I did at your last meeting. Only one full-time taxi driver attended
It occurs to me, Mr. Lutfallah, that you too are not a "full-time taxi driver". I do believe that you still have valuable things to say, and your opinions are respected.
and the discussion was more about badmouthing and discussing people who weren't in attendence {sic} than discussing issues.
The attendance was missing some important people, but without you there, it would be far less fruitful a meeting. I do hope your reportage will not be colored by your evident distain for those who give a **** about those who do not pay for advertising in a trade rag to get along in life.
Hopefully we can get to more "issues" today. Pity it is that you won't be there to report on it. But then I guess you feel the taxi press should only cover other matters, and the editorial policy that gets paid for by the fleet owners is set by you, not us.
Thus I won't be attending but I do appreciate the invitation.
You are invited to the next meeting -- who knows, you might seize the day and come in spite of the fact that you regard our efforts as a waste of your time.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Regards back, sir.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:40:37 EST
Subject: Re: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, NYTWA1@aol.com
CC: zybarwulf@comcast.net, Rajalkhan@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, ADEEM@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, subey21@hotmail.com, naim23@gmail.com, paenger@yahoo.com, princewinstonfield@yahoo.com, aaajiji@hotmail.com, kabahay606@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/17/2007 12:59:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, george@chicagodispatcher.com writes:
Will it matter if anyone shows up?
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
George ~~~ You won't know unless you come. Of course, if it's a waste of time, you can report it as such. Maybe it will be, but your failure to attend is not going to derail efforts drivers make in the Chicago Metro area to better their lives. We - Yi Tang and I, that is - aren't in this for profit.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:46:25 EST
Subject: Re: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, george@chicagodispatcher.com, NYTWA1@aol.com
CC: zybarwulf@comcast.net, Rajalkhan@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, ADEEM@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, subey21@hotmail.com, naim23@gmail.com, paenger@yahoo.com, princewinstonfield@yahoo.com, aaajiji@hotmail.com, kabahay606@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/17/2007 1:05:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
It will have two there for sure George, Me and Mr. Nathan.
Don you think that we cannot meet?
I know we can meet and that we will meet. If George Lutfallah thinks it's a waste of his precious time, let him understand that I could be doing some other work that I bill at $250 per hour instead.
My commitment to the taxi industry is not profit based. I don't depend on revenue from Flash or AUCA or Globe or the like to get by. If Mr. Lutfallah is sincerely interested in making the lives of our brothers and sisters a little better, he'll come. If he's just in it for th e almighty buck and doesn't give a ****, he'll play attack dog and respond in a vicious way - even more so than his first e-mail of this afternoon.
Regardless of who shows up to discuss ISSUES, I will be there along with you. We will make some sort of progress, however much or little I do not really care.
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:49:51 EST
Subject: Re: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, NYTWA1@aol.com, melissacci@yahoo.com
CC: zybarwulf@comcast.net, Rajalkhan@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, ADEEM@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, subey21@hotmail.com, naim23@gmail.com, paenger@yahoo.com, princewinstonfield@yahoo.com, aaajiji@hotmail.com, kabahay606@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/17/2007 12:44:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, george@chicagodispatcher.com writes:
Mr. Tang,
Thank you for inviting me to your meeting. I don't want to waste my time again like I did at your last meeting. Only one full-time taxi driver attended and the discussion was more about badmouthing and discussing people who weren't in attendence than discussing issues. Thus I won't be attending but I do appreciate the invitation.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
George:
I owe you an apology. I like to think I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. I have no doubt but that my use of a *******ization of your name was uncalled for. If you are man enough, you are going to be willing to forgive my indiscretion. Having used that epithet in a private e-mail to Yi Tang, Wolfgang Weiss and Prakeet Sampat, I made a mistake. My judgment is usually better than that.
It is unfortunate that one of the recipients of that e-mail forwarded it on to a third party who is going to go unnamed. That third party forwarded it on to you. Your anger was justified. I humble myself and ask your forgiveness.
You will never call me a coward, however, and expect to get away with it. If your purpose in bursting into that meeting was to derail it - and it may well have been with booming voice and bully like tactic - then Bhairavi Desai was right in her assessment of you expressed in the e-mail that was attached to the chain you were sent. I do hope it was not just your motive to disrupt efforts to organize cab drivers. Perhaps that is for the others to assess.
When you break into a peaceful meeting with stentorian insults directed at me, you need to appreciate that you are only going to get the kind of welcome any ex-Marine gives by way of instinct. I may be double your age, but you are never going to manhandle me like a thug without a response in kind. I apologize for the use of an inappropriate epithet, but you did come into that meeting in just the same way Brownshirts burst into meetings back in the early '30's somewhere well to the east of New York.
If you don't want to be called names, watch the way you conduct yourself. I will do my best to button my lip and to accord you the respect you deserve.
Yours truly,
Donald Nathan, Esq.
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 16:59:31 EST
Subject: Re: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, NYTWA1@aol.com, melissacci@yahoo.com
CC: zybarwulf@comcast.net, Rajalkhan@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, ADEEM@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, subey21@hotmail.com, naim23@gmail.com, princewinstonfield@yahoo.com, aaajiji@hotmail.com, kabahay606@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/18/2007 12:02:33 P.M. Central Standard Time, george@chicagodispatcher.com writes:
Mr. Tang wrote: "Can we get over with it?"
No. That wasn't the first time your partner Donald Nathan referred to me as a Nazi.
I speak for myself, son. I do not speak for Yi Tang, nor does he for me. I need no defense by him from a rabid dog.
After that I came to your meeting last month. I extended myself, even after being called a Nazi, which I take immense offense to.
Quacks like a duck ...
And what do I get? I'm referred to as a Nazi again.
Quack, woof, woof, woof.
Remember that this is the same Donald Nathan who has repeatedly tried to play himself off as a man with "no axe to grind."
I still have no axe to grind - I didn't come to disrupt that meeting. I came to host it.
My willingness to work with any group that involves Donald Nathan has passed.
You, sir, are a solipsist, a self-focused bully.
I am not part of any group and care not to be. I am available for consultation without charge for groups that seek it - pro bono publico. I am not paid for grinding axes by the fleet owners like you are.
You need the work. I don't. All recognize you for what you are.
Do you understand that or do I need to spoon feed it to you?
You need to take that spoon, fold it up five ways and deposit it where the moon doesn't shine.
George Lutfallah
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:15:02 EST
Subject: Re: Correction - What's In A Name?
To: zybarwulf@comcast.net, george@chicagodispatcher.com
CC: pete@zelchenko.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, Jim4Safety@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, Sargamradio@aol.com, malik@ciogc.org, naim23@gmail.com, fkhozindar@yahoo.com, Rajalkhan@aol.com, rima@kapitanlaw.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, NYTWA1@aol.com, melissacci@yahoo.com, farid@ciogc.org, swatts@chicagoreader.com
Thanks for the chuckle and a bit of education.
DSN
In a message dated 11/18/2007 2:08:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, zybarwulf@comcast.net writes:
Another spelling error! Gosh darn it.
George's last name is (correctly) spelled L U T F A L L A H.
Not L U F T A L L A H. And, no, not L U F T W A F F E (which is not related to current Nazis, German or otherwise, but is the name of the current German Air Force. L U F T W A F F E means "Air Force").
L U T F A L L A H means "Kindness of God." Beautiful thought. But the shoe don't fit, George.
I for one, do not think George is a Nazi, even though he tends to act like an old WW2 storm trooper* with his words and deeds.
Here, in a nut shell, is the general consensus of what people think of George Lutfallah, the Kindness of God, as eloquently stated by several fellow drivers and herein digested into a single statement:
"Based on recent events, (I) think of George as a "girly man" who is too easily affected by rhetorical repartee and one who likes to take offense and screaming (like a little girl) about badmouthing and name calling."
"This is intentionally done by him to deflect us from the issues."
"There are serious issues which need to discussed and resolved. George is making sure we don't have serious discussions or develop reasonable resolutions to the problems."
"He is one of the problems. The sooner drivers get this, the sooner we can make real progress."
"[George's] so-called newspaper is really just a trade jounal for the owners of the big fleets and for the City. He does not fool me."
"Whoever called him an 'attack dog' is perfectly right to do so. It's not the name, it's the connotation that counts."
"His own actions scream louder than his words."
"His words have brought much harm to his brothers and sisters."
-wolf-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sturmabteilung -- a member of the Nazi militia noted for brutality and violence; one who resembles or behaves like a member of the Nazi militia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: For you undereducated ones, if any, George's sir name and namesake has historical significance, even though George himself has none:
Lutf Allah (d. c. 1357/58) was the leader of the Sarbadars of Sabzewar from 1356 until his death.
Lutf Allah was the son of Wajih ad-Din Mas'ud, the second leader of the Sarbadars, and was considered by Mas'ud's adherents to be his legitimate successor. By the reign of Yahya Karawi he had come of age and Mas'ud's supporters were ready to install him as head of state. After the murder of Yahya in c. 1355 they attempted to seize control of the government. They were prevented from doing so by Haidar Qassib, who drove them from Sabzewar and killed many of them. The remaining members of Mas'ud's party fled to Esfarayen, where Lutf Allah's atabeg Nasr Allah rebelled against the central government. The situation for Lutf Allah improved when Haidar Qassib was murdered on the orders of Hasan Damghani. Hasan then had Lutf Allah proclaimed as formal sovereign of the Sarbadars.
Lutf Allah's reign was short and consisted mostly of him acting as a figurehead for Hasan Damghani. During this time Astarabad was lost to Amir Vali. After a few years Lutf Allah got into a disagreement with Hasan Damghani, who deposed and executed him and then took formal control of the state. With Lutf Allah's death the party of Mas'ud was mostly broken.
(Geeorge may have delusions of grandeur due to this.)
----- Original Message -----
From: Wolfgang J. Weiss
To: Peter Zelchenko ; Yi Tang ; Daniel James Szekely ; Diane Santucci ; Prateek Sampat ; Salem Qureshi ; Ifti Nasim ; A. Malik Mujahid ; Naim Mansour ; Fayez Khozindar ; Raja L. Khan ; Rima N. Kapitan ; Mike Foulks ; Bhairavi Desai ; Melissa Callahan ; Farad Al-Taqi
Cc: Steve C. Watts
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Fw: Trained Attack Dog Invades Kabaob Corner
Read it and weep - or laugh - folks.
This one is for the Annals of Taxi History....
Or is it for the Annals of Fools?
---Wolfgang J. Weiss---
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:32:26 EST
Subject: Re: Meeting on November 17th (Saturday), at 2:30 p.m.
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, george@chicagodispatcher.com, Rajalkhan@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, psampat@afsc.org, junningz@sbcglobal.net, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, melissacci@yahoo.com
CC: zybarwulf@comcast.net, salemqureshi@yahoo.com, ADEEM@aol.com, budzynskithaddeus@yahoo.com, subey21@hotmail.com, naim23@gmail.com, princewinstonfield@yahoo.com, aaajiji@hotmail.com, kabahay606@yahoo.com
Hello everyone --- Your next meeting will be a productive one without me there. I am going to continue to make myself available for consultation and help as needed principally on a time donated basis. But I am not taking any more time that I could bill to paying clients to come to "meetings" dominated by those who come just to disrupt.
The entire purpose of the bully was to derail your efforts. I cannot allow that to happen. March forward brothers and sisters. Your mission is way too important.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/17/2007 9:15:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
Hello, everyone,
Thanks all for coming today. Our next meeting is going to be on December 15 (Saturday), 2:30 p.m. at
Dominick's-Canal Street #1147
1340 South Canal Street
Chicago, Illinois 60607
The purpose of the meeting will be the same as today, to focus on how to find a way to work together peacefully.
Shall there be a ground rules for the meeting next time?
Your feed-backs and comments are welcome here!
Thanks again for your participations!
Yi Tang
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:24:18 EST
Subject: Re: Solidarity
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, NYTWA1@aol.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net
CC: psampat@afsc.org, chinatownmike@yahoo.com
In a message dated 11/19/2007 12:42:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
It was quite a show on Saturday. I guess that little trick did not serve the purpose as planed.
Sorry that you missed the show. George was way over the ege, and he was like a street ganster when he walked in.
Yi
Look here ---
The important thing is that he should be recognized for what he is - that his misconduct be seen by drivers as gutter level and not self-righteous. I am not sure how it is going to be taken in the wider community of Chicago cabbies in the short run. My expectation is that is that we will do better for it in the longer run as long as the word is spread that gangster tactics cannot silence truth.
That's your obligation. And so too, it's the responsibility of a bunch of concerned people: Wolf, Prakeet, Raja, Diane, Mike Foulks and his sidekick, John Rees and maybe even Melissa.
One way or another, I am going to be taking a more passive role. It is known that I am willing to give of my time for court work - not class action suits that generate fees, but actions seeking injunctive relief. No one seems to take advantage of it as yet. I expect Bhairavi Desai can tell you the import of taking court action. Even if you lose your adversaries take you more seriously.
From 1976 through the end of 1979 I worked for a firm that took more cases to Jury trials than any other in the State of Illinois. The partners didn't give one diddly **** whether any of those cases was won. They knew, and they were 110% right, that the insurance companies would settle ALL of the good cases with them knowing the cost of having to lose those good ones. And most of the cases WERE good ones. The two of those guys did very well - and I still won half of the junk they dumped on my desk.
The point is that the City is never going to take you seriously unless you are willing to go to the mat on the issues that count. The Commissioner and her staff are never going to capitulate on anything that matters to you unless they are defendants over and over and over. The Mayor and the Aldermen laugh up their sleeves right now because they know they can act with impunity with a dysfunctional, fractious body of unorganized cab drivers.
Even if the reportage of Mike Foulks begging was wrong, the public perception is being colored in the press such that drivers will never see relief for what is only going to get worse at the gas pump. Do you really think you're going to get a fare hike begging for it? The only way to achieve anything with politicians is with court action and sheer numbers of organized drivers wielding a collective voice. Foulks' efforts to create that kind of collective voice should be encouraged IMO toward that end.
See if Bhairavi tells you anything different. She has to know this fighting billionaire *******s like Bloomberg and his cronies. She does it with a voice of 10,000 and determination to not back down at the courthouse steps.
At least Dickie Daley loves our town and isn't just in it as an ego trip or for some sick self-aggrandizement. Daley, just like his father, responds favorably to organized groups. Remember, it was an organization that put him into office and that keeps him there.
You are advised again, respectfully, not to circulate this e-mail among any others. You should make the spirit of it heard, not the language.
DSN
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:59:24 EST
Subject: Re: FW: Congradulations and Happy Thanks Giving to you!
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, NYTWA1@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, melissacci@yahoo.com, pete@zelchenko.com, psampat@afsc.org, zybarwulf@comcast.net
Mike:
Good for you and good for drivers generally in the Chicago Metro area. My read is that you have the right goals. Your CCO working with other groups can help to form the force that makes a difference when trying to achieve those goals. Please keep me in your loop.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/22/2007 7:54:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
Message: The first Chicago Cabdriver Organization (CCO) Election occurred on November 21, 2007. I, Mike Foulks, have accepted the Presidency of the CCO. I am completing the election process and will post the results here very soon.
I want to thank all the cabdrivers who registered and voted to create the CCO. I wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving Day.
-Mike Foulks, CCO President
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:40:00 EST
Subject: Fwd: FYI -
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
John Rees called me about a week ago to get together. I tried to get back to him, but we didn't connect. I've been out in California at home for the holiday since then. Perhaps we might try to get together sometime over the next week. I'll be back late tonight, and after a morning in court out in Rockford, I will be generally available in the late afternoons every day to meet.
I expect to be gone from December 6 thorugh 12 and then will be in Chicago until New Year's eve. Please contact John, and let's the three of us get together when it's best for you.
Don Nathan
The attached blurb is well worth reading thorugh in its entirety - it's a good idea to take a couple of lessons from this woman who has built an organization of the size of the one she has.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Forwarded Message [ Download File ]
From: "Wolfgang J. Weiss"
To: "Yi Tang"
Subject: FYI -
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:16:15 -0600
HTML Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer ]
November 18, 2005
"Bhairavi Desai, New York Taxi Workers Alliance"
Welcome to Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai, Executive Director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance. Questions and answers will appear below starting at 1 pm EST on Friday, November 18. You may need to hit refresh periodically during the interview to see the latest responses. Read background
Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us for today's Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai, Executive Director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance.
Bhairavi, what motivated each of you to get involved in social justice work?
Bhairavi Desai
I grew up in a family where both bread-and-butter and social justice were always on the table. My parents were socially conscious. I grew up poor and as I became older and I started to read about the inequities of the world and how inequities are structured and systematic, I also learned about resistance and movements and the power of people to make change. It’s that combination of recognizing exploitation and in that same breath, recognizing the ability of people to transform the world. And that really is, for me, the essence of social change work. And so as I was growing older, I became really politicized by the Palestinian movement as well as the Nicaraguan struggle. I grew up in the ‘80s at the time of Iran-Contra, and it never sat well with me that the US should be dictating to another country the policies and politics of another nation. Even as a 13-year-old, I knew it was wrong. When I would watch the news, I saw Nicaraguans and Palestinians fighting for justice, and they looked like myself and my family and my friends, and so that image really resonated with me. It very much shaped my confidence in social justice movements.
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Detroit, MI
Would you define your organization as a service organization (in service for workers) or a worker-led one or a combination of both?
Bhairavi Desai
We are a combination of both, which means we’re a union. To me, workers are the army of the oppressed. And services are like treating the wounded, services are to bring people back up on their feet so that they can be healthier and safer and stronger to wage the economic battles in the industry. And working people represent a power that is only paralleled by the wealthy in this society. They’re not in power, unlike the wealthy, but when organized, they have power. And especially in a society like this, where everything is about money and maximizing profits, you cannot change society without using the power of labor. And so we, as an organization, are a democratic mass-based membership union of taxicab drivers that are organizing to change their lives through changing working conditions, and through that, changing society as a whole. And by that I mean, when a group of workers for example, settle on a contract, the wages set by that contract become either the new floor or the new ceiling. We want to raise up the floor and destroy that ceiling.
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Walla Walla, WA
How do you bring workers from different ethnic backgrounds whose home country politics may makes folks less apt to trust each other?
Bhairavi Desai
First of all, we don’t deny people’s differences because denying differences means you deny histories. But we create dialogue and conversation to understand those differences and to determine which differences are superficial and created to divide and conquer versus which differences reveal the beautiful complexities of our world. Secondly, we build unity through a common language of struggle and a platform for change. That sounds so simple, but I think ultimately, it’s about our workers trusting the organization, and you best trust something that you have control over and that you can see and understand from the inside out. And so the organization becomes a point of commonality, and the working conditions become the point of unity. This is also the power and the beauty of class-based organizing because while certainly people who are marginalized by racism and xenophobia may experience class exploitation differently, the bottom line is all working people are exploited.
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Milwaukee, WI
As far as I know, you're not a current or former taxicab driver. Do you think it's important for a worker movement to be led by workers rather than allies such as yourself?
Bhairavi Desai
I think allies have a strategic role to play. I see myself as a representative and extension of the movement. But there’s no doubt that ultimately, it’s the taxi drivers who are the most important people because they hold both the knowledge of the industry as well as the ability to create change through their labor. I remember in 1998, when we had a strike, there were people from the administration who tried to divide the drivers from the organization because I’m not a taxi driver, and the membership saw that as a moment to divide the movement and came to my defense. And so our leadership body within the organization is the organizing committee of which I’m one member, and there’s one other non-driver, but everybody else is a taxi driver. And our general membership of 6,700 are all taxi drivers.
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Portland, OR
You probably have a broader vision of social justice and equity that you bring to your work, while some or many of the workers/members may only be looking at improving their own personal situations. How do you help bring folks along to see the larger picture - or is that not part of your strategy?
Bhairavi Desai
Actually, most of the drivers that I work alongside with also have a broader vision. Taxi drivers as a whole tend to be fairly political, they follow the news almost as if it’s part of their job, and they interact with people from all social and economic backgrounds. And given that most drivers, 90 percent, are third-world immigrants, they have lived first-hand, for example, the impact of globalization and forced migration. So within our organizing committee, whenever we work on an issue, whether it’s a living wage campaign or a privacy rights campaign, such as we’re working on right now, we examine what are the forces in power that have a stake in the issue and how will power be changed, depending on the results of our campaign. So I think for all of us, as individuals, and most especially as movements, we must see our work in the broader world, particularly at a time of globalization where on one hand, the world seems to get divided into smaller and smaller pieces, and on the other hand, it’s becoming one big global entity.
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Philadelphia, PA
Why did you choose this community to serve?
Bhairavi Desai
Growing up poor and South Asian, the most prominent image of working-class South Asians I could look up to were taxi drivers. And so I always had a great romantic respect and love for drivers. And so my heart was there long before my work was. And politically, I became frustrated by both the feminist movement and the general South Asian community-based movement because of a lack of respect for issues of class. So I wanted to organize specifically working people, but not in a traditional AFL-CIO union, which was also a source of political frustration because it had capitulated to capital decades ago and had such a history of racist and sexist politics inside various locals, which I saw growing up, in my mother’s experiences, in her union. So I really wanted to organize working class and poor people to create change through their power, which to me is reflected in their labor. And so taxi drivers are a perfect constituency. They are perfect agents of change because they are on the margins based on race, class, immigration, as nontraditional workers, as non-unionized workers, and at the same time, they are at the center of the economy because without them, New York City cannot run. It was that contradiction which needed to be resolved, and that can only be done through good organizing. And so they won over my heart and politically and intellectually, I found the work to be exciting. In 33 years of life, it’s the best decision I ever made.
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New York, NY
The general 'stereotype' of South Asian communities is that women don't have the same power in society as men. As a female leader, have there been particular challenges you have recognized working in a traditionally male dominated community and workplace?
Bhairavi Desai
It’s not just a stereotype, it’s the reality of patriarchy, not just in South Asia , but throughout the world. Within the South Asian context, feminists would say that while the West sees women as incapable of holding power, the Third World sees women as too inherently powerful and needing of control. When I first started, many people assumed that there was a man in the industry who had brought me to the work, either a father, a brother, or a husband. And for some people, when they saw there was no such man, they thought their role was to fill that position because, again, women need to be controlled. Or women need to be disciplined in order to hold on to positions of power. And so it’s definitely been a struggle with the drivers, the ownership, the regulators, and the media, but what allowed me to change the playing field and to make it a safer and effective ground for me on which I could work was through relationships with drivers. Most drivers, even while maintaining skepticism, they engaged me and gave me the benefit of the doubt that I could be an effective organizer. And once they recognized me as an ally, the other power structures followed. When I was a kid, my grandmother would always tell me that as much as things are stacked against you in this world, ultimately, your own belief in your work can change anything. Well, I would add to my grandmother’s wisdom that it’s both your own work and your belief in people and your belonging to the movement. These things are what allow us to work in social change on a daily basis. If I had a dollar for everyone who has said to me through the years that a young woman of color, second-generation immigrant, can neither change the world nor organize in an all-male industry, we would be a self-funded organization.
I also work with an amazing team of men in the Organizing Committee who have never made me feel less or incapable or unwanted or inadequate for any reason, including my gender. And through their example, other drivers and other men in the industry have had to follow.
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Birmingham, AL
Have you built alliances with other worker organizations in NYC and elsewhere?
Bhairavi Desai
We have allies of other worker organizations and community-based and youth social-justice groups in New York City and in other parts of the world. We learn strategies, tactics, more principled politics, and a better understanding of the power structure from engaging with other organizers. At the moment, we’re forming an international alliance of taxi workers. We have a sister group in Philadelphia ; in Omaha , Nebraska ; in Los Angeles ; and in Toronto , Ontario , Canada ; and there are 15 other groups that are in the process of formation. We see that in the taxi industry throughout the country, there are common practices by the ownership. In essence, each city takes turns being a guinea pig in the experiment of worker exploitation. And again, one group of workers gets used to bring others into line. So the owners have a national group which meets to share strategies on union-busting and maximizing profits, and the only way to balance capital is through organized labor. And so we’re forming an international union so we can stop the experiments at their root before they spread. It’s also just simply heartening to meet other people that you can talk shop with and laugh with and sometimes even cry with.
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New Haven, CT
If I understand correctly you have a very small staff, how do you build leadership within your organization?
Bhairavi Desai
I don’t think staff and leadership are the same thing. Staff are the workers who are able to labor for the organization on a day-to-day basis. Our organizing committee, which is now 15 members, also outreach to the drivers on a day-to-day basis and participate in all the negotiations. And we hold almost daily conference calls on strategizing during the mobilization phase of a campaign. We also have an engaged general membership, where out of the 6,700, there are 500 core members with whom the Organizing Committee communicates on a regular basis. General members must vote on the demand of the campaign and must authorize the Organizing Committee to be able to make a strike call for any given campaign. And the Organizing Committee decides on the strategies and tactics day-to-day for the campaigns and the overall growth of the organization.
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Chicago, IL
What advice do you have for other young activists? How can they prepare to be effective?
Bhairavi Desai
First and foremost, love oppressed people and love the work that you do. Have faith that things can change and that each of us has a role. Be ready to work long hours, but know that your labor will not only be valued, but also blessed by people you may never even meet in your entire life. I remember last summer going to the airport taxi lot. It was a Saturday night, and I had gone there to outreach to the drivers. As I was walking to the lot, I thought, drivers will think either I’m really crazy or really unpopular, that I’m spending my Saturday night working at the lot. And each member I saw insisted that I sit with them inside their car, each person turned on the radio and insisted we only talk about life and not about the work. When I walked back to the bus stop to go home, I realized two things: One was that they gave me my Saturday night, and two, as long as that welcoming remained, I would never feel alone again. And so the love and the blessings that you get back from people for just speaking the truth and fighting for the most basic things is the most beautiful feeling, and it’s incomparable to what most people get from their work.
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Leadership for a Changing World
Thanks again for a great discussion. We have time for one more question that we like to ask all of our guests.
How do you sustain yourself and your staff to prevent burnout?
Bhairavi Desai
We have a really close Organizing Committee, very open organization. Just by having conversations about life in general allows you to remember that there’s always another day, and that the fight is never over. Little things, like celebrating everybody’s birthday and acknowledging when there is a loss in their life, sharing that grief, they are reminders that there is love and hope in the organization. And that becomes motivating to walk into the doors for another day. But with all that love and patience, you also have to have intense rage for the exploitation and the uncompromising sense that what is wrong must be fixed That’s what I learn from the drivers every day. It goes back to that question about the role of allies versus worker organizers. For me, when I see how much members of our Organizing Committee and active general members resist and transform and just handle with such amazing clarity, courage, and humor, it motivates me to give it my best for the organization and to be around them and learn from them and work with them with all of my heart.
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Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us for today's Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai. For more information on Bhairavi and the New York Taxi Workers Alliance:
Bhairavi Desai
New York Taxi Workers Alliance
37 East 28th St.
Suite 302
New York , NY 10016
Phone: 212-627-5248
Fax: 646-638-4446
Email: nytwa1@aol.com
Bhairavi Desai
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:59:15 EST
Subject: Re: How to make a Deal!
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, melissacci@yahoo.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net
You know this one is going to fly - and the consequence for cab drivers is going to be disastrous.
DSN
In a message dated 11/28/2007 2:38:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2007/11/daley-on-board.html
« Stroger admits he's 'stuck' on budget | Main | Foster on air in race to succeed Hastert »
Originally posted: November 27, 2007
Daley on board with latest CTA fix
Posted by Gary Washburn at 3:35 p.m.
Mayor Richard Daley voiced support today for a bill in Springfield that would bring a new source of funding to the Chicago Transit Authority and insisted he is optimistic about its passage.
Daley acknowledged the two potential problems in the way of the idea to use gasoline sales tax revenue collected in the six-county region to bail out mass transit: the diversion would create a hole elsewhere in the state budget, and separate legislation to raise money for road, school and other infrastructure projects still is needed.
The mayor said he has “no idea” how the shortfall would be remedied, but did not appear to care as long as the gas tax measure is passed.
“Everybody has agreed on that,” he said of the bill, in something of an overstatement. “The governor has agreed on that, so what can I tell you?”
Downstate legislators might not support the transit bill as they hold out for a companion measure that would raise money for construction projects. An expansion of gaming has been discussed as a possible source of revenue for infrastructure.
Daley supports the concept of a Chicago gaming facility.
“It is very complicated...when you go into the casino issue, very, very complicated,” he said. But, “you need infrastructure...Especially when the economy becomes difficult, that is what government reinvests into communities.”
The mayor previously supported a proposal to fund public transit with a quarter-cent increase in the Chicago area sales tax, something that failed to win the support of Blagojevich and key legislators.
But so long as the CTA gets what it needs, Daley said it makes no difference to him if that measure is supplanted by the gas tax bill.
“That is what they have come up with,” he said. “The Republicans and Democrats have kind of agreed on this, so when you have agreement like that, you have to go with it.”
The mayor said he hopes the bill will be passed so fare increases and heavy service cuts planned for early next year can be averted.
“You can’t keep people on edges over the Christmas holiday,” he asserted. “And you have all the men and women who work for the CTA. All the bus drivers have families.”
Transit workers have agreed to pension and health care concessions in a pending five-year contract and “it took a lot of courage to do that,” Daley said. “I think we owe them as well.”
Under a proposal that House Speaker Michael Madigan said Monday he now supports, the state’s share of the sales tax collected on gasoline in the six-county Chicago metropolitan area would be diverted to the CTA, Metra and Pace. The concept initially was raised by House Republicans and later backed by Gov. Rod Blagojevich. A House vote on the measure is scheduled for Wednesday.
“I am very optimistic, Daley said. “There has been a lot of ideas floating. I think some of them are getting edged in regards to compromise...I think we look forward to a satisfied resolution, I hope tomorrow.”
Some lawmakers of both parties have been concerned that the measure would create a $385 million gap in the budget because there is no proposal to replace the money.
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:12:01 EST
Subject: A few thoughts borne from your criticism
To: chinatownmike@yahoo.com
CC: donald.nathan@sbcglobal.net
Mr. Foulks --- I must have touched a couple of raw nerves. It certainly wasn't my intent to tweak you. Evidently I did so - to whatever extent you saw my comments offensive, I ask you overlook them and move forward with my honest offer to donate time to you to use as you might find it to the benefit of your organization.
This e-mail is to you and no one else because as far as I am concerned, attorney-client privilege has attached in our communication. When my comments are more impersonal, I may make them public, but for the purpose of setting a few things straight with you, I am directing these remarks to you alone. The copy to my other e-mail account is sent so as to preserve it beyond the day-to-day nonsense of the "demerdard" address.
Bear in mind that my time is ordinarily billed out at $250 per hour; my meter runs like a machine gun compared with yours. But I am telling you flat-out that I gave away 120 hours of that billable time last year to taxi industry groups in and out of the Chicago Metro area as well as to cab drivers whose rights were being abused. My feeling is that it is the obligation of a senior attorney to give back to the community from which he comes.
And I come from a background of seven years behind the wheel of a cab, one of those years full-time (over 84 hours/week - I was what they used to call a "Minute-Man"; that is, I checked into American United at one minute before 6:00 P.M. driving S + Z Cab Co. #2510) as well as 32 years as counsel for well over 5,000 cab drivers. Outsider or no, the reason you don't wear uniforms driving 84 hours a week is because of a lawsuit against the City and the Commissioner filed 30 years ago. The reason you get Work Comp benefits is because of the Yellow Cab case. The reason you get uninsured motorist benefits is because of the Orval McCabe case. Outsider work has put a lot of rights and benefits in your pocket, sir.
You work 84 a week? I work a good bit more than that. Because I'm an old man, I need much less sleep than you: six hours a night is more than enough (168 - 42 = 126). My expectation is that I will donate over 200 hours of time this year one place or another - whether that be on your CCO or elsewhere, it works out to about 4 hours a week (down to 122). I do have to take some amount of time for ordinary daily functions: 3 hours each day cuts my work time down to 101 hours per week. And I do piddle away a few hours here and there on the things I enjoy, none of which are of any concern to you.
The point is that I work about 90 hours per week.
You pay dearly for your cab. So too, I pay for an office, malpractice insurance, postage, bar association dues, mandatory continuing legal education courses, stationary, telephones, court costs, and on and on and on and on and on and on. My overhead is just different from yours. I understand your situation better than you choose to realize. I lived it for years directly, and now I do in just a different way.
Some of my comments are buried in your e-mail below. My offer to be of use to you stands, and I emphasize it again because it is not an empty one. Whether there is an attorney out there among the 13,500 licensed public passenger vehicle chauffeurs is hardly the question. If there is, I question why this person is driving a cab and not practicing law. Why would anyone suffer three years of law school - for most that's a 100+ hour/week commitment - and taking the Bar exam - two months to prepare that's a living hell - to stay behind the wheel of a cab?
I did try to get back to John Rees who called me relative to CCO business. From the 21st to the 27th I was out of Illinois, but I am available generally 24/7/365 via the Internet, the telephone and much more often than not in-person, live in Chicago.
Donald Nathan
Message: Mr. Nathan,
Thank you for your compliments and advice. A traditional work week is 40 hours.
Who works a traditional work week? I never suggested you did. I sure don't.
Cabdrivers work much longer than that.
Look here, young man. I was a cabdriver working much longer than 40 hours a week before you were born. I suspect I know the hours - they haven't changed. My cab sighed from exhaustion every time I checked it in.
Considering that an average nights' sleep is 8 hours, I can reduce the time I could speak with anyone during a week to 112 hours (168-56).
I respect your energy. I'll bet you do fine with much less than 8 hours/night.
I am committed to Chair CCO meetings on the first and third Wednesdays at 3pm, which could take 3 or more hours from the available schedule. I am also committed to spending Mondays and Tuesdays from 3pm to 5pm, possibly longer, meeting with cabdrivers at a fixed location. This reduces the number of hours to 105. (112-(3+2+2))
The time you put into your effort is going to pay in spades. I have every confidence you are going to build your organization from 40 or 50 voting members logarithmically.
I don't think its too selfish of me to reserve 5 hours I might spend with my baby cousins on a moments' notice on Sunday afternoons. (Or to at least watch the Bears game.)
Enjoy! I have four kids, and the youngest is just eight. These are the joys of life, and we're all entitled to a few. Why else suffer all of life's indignities?
Now we have 100 available hours in my schedule. (105-5)
So, "just 8 hours" is either 20% of a regular work schedule or 8% of all my reasonable, available hours to speak with Mr. Sampat or Mr. Weiss. (I'm sure the math is unnecessary at this point.)
You make your point well. But I'll bet the time invested would be worth the trouble for Chicago cab drivers in general.
I consider neither Mr. Sampat nor Mr. Weiss to be worth 1/5th or even 1/13th of my time. That is to say that neither is in the top 5 or top 13 people of importance to make time for. Thus, I have made a generous offer to accept Mr. Weiss suggestion, out of my respect for Mr. Weiss, not Mr. Sampat.
That's encouraging. I don't think it's important to like or respect Prateek Sampat to be effective as an organizer of cab drivers in Chicago.
Mr. Sampat has not asked to see me and has avoided my attempts to speak with him or respond to my requests to document his claims.
That's a bad choice on Sampat's part. But he does things that leave me shaking my head too. I chalk it off to his want of experience in the affairs of life generally. I don't have the impression that he is malicious, however. Perhaps the way you have approached him has made him a bit fearful of you. You are a strong person, and he may feel threatened by your demeanor.
I do not like Mr. Sampat NOT because he is an 'outsider' (which simply means that he is not a cabdriver). I do not like Mr. Sampat because of his conduct.
Call him on his misconduct. Rake him over the coals. I suspect it would benefit cab drivers in general to make your feelings public because it would almost certainly affect Sampat's approach. You need to know that Sampat is not going to go away just because you don't like him. It is better to marshal his support by offering him criticism than it is to hose him for his immature or misguided conduct.
Mr. Weiss is an 'insider' (which simply means that he is a cabdriver). I like Mr. Weiss NOT because he is a cabdriver, but because he (I think proudly) serves as a gadfly when he is at his best.
Weiss is a very bright man with an acid pen. He has his uses, and he's fun to play with for me.
You, Mr. Nathan, are an outsider by the above definition, and I will brand you as a ignorant fool if you continue to insist that there are no insider lawyers among the 13,500 (alleged) cabdrivers licensed by the city.
See above comments. IMO, a lawyer who drives a cab full-time has to be either an ignorant fool or only marginally incompetent as a lawyer. I am probably an ignorant fool, but it isn't because I believe there is a want of legal talent driving cabs.
You are potentially harmful if you are making a presumption that I have concluded that cabdrivers shouldn't deal with outsiders based on my criticism of Mr. Sampat or the fact that I have made a simple distinction between certain individuals so the identities and interests of these individuals can be explained to those who are confused. I have made no such conclusion.
I don't make presumptions. Presumptions arise by operation of various principles in the practice of law. I am not presuming anything with regard to insiders and outsiders. Some people are presumptuous. I am not - of you or of the thought that "...cabdrivers shouldn't deal with outsiders based on [your] criticism of Mr. Sampat..."
Those who are perpetuating such a falsehood are revealing how desperate they are become involved in (to probably control) the organizing effort.
If you are suggesting indirectly that I have some ulterior motive to "control the organizing effort", disabuse yourself of the notion. I see myself in the role of nothing more than a resource person, someone to use as the need warrants it. I'm trying to give back to the community from which I profited rather handsomely over the decades.
Your implication that I don't need to meet with Mr. Weiss because you believe that cabdrivers 'must be thinking the same thoughts' shows your willingness to attribute an absurd statement or belief to me.
That was rather absurd. The point was to make you appreciate that those who you characterize as "outsiders" do have their uses. And the fact that one or another person is an "insider" does not ipso facto make the guy one diddly **** useful to your efforts.
I cannot appreciate this sarcasm because its foundation is faulty. I would ask that you save any deliberate obfuscation of the facts for the judges and juries you face on the behalf of your clients.
It was snide - not sarcastic. The foundation wasn't a consideration. Facts were not being posited for any purpose other than as set out above.
You have failed to fulfill my one request for legal work.
What one request? I told you I'd meet with you, but I cannot do it necessarily when and where you specify. My office is 16 miles directly to the west of Kabob Corner, and the parking is free. Time in the early afternoons is often open as is time around 5:30 to 7:00 P.M. Saturday and Sunday afternoons are usually open as long as I am in town which is 2/3 of the time. Call if you want an appointment: 630-758-1500. Or send me an e-mail.
You jeopardized the site of the CCO election by your predilection for failing to come to the defense of a cabdriver named George Lutfallah, whose only proven 'crime' seems to be that he has been moderately successful at creating the Chicago Dispatcher among other projects. No, more than that, you engaged in a character assassination.
This mope came busting into a meeting with the avowed purpose of derailing the efforts YOU were making to organize. He didn't come in like a bully to be defended by me. Rather, he came in to bellow out in a bombastic way that he wanted to kick my ass. What are you sniffing, Mr. Foulks? You were sitting right to my left when that fellow came in like Bluto in a Popeye cartoon.
Only God knows what else you have done to derail the honest work of others for your own interests. I am not one to sell speculation as a known secret. Do you understand me, Mr. Nathan? God is not the only one who knows. Think carefully.
You are invoking the Almighty to criticize me in some way? How odd. No. I do not understand you. The last thing I want to do is "...to derail the honest work of others..." I don't even want to derail the dishonest work of others for my own interests or anyone else's. Do you understand me, Mr. Foulks? Think carefully.
If you are so disturbed by the term 'outsider', let me 'brand' you with a better moniker: 'unnecessary distraction'.
You don't want free legal help? Suit yourself. The availability of it stands just the same.
If your obfuscation of the facts is not deliberate, that is, if you are an honest fool, I could forgive your ignorance. Your mistake is overvaluing and undervaluing different people and misanalysis in general. However, this situation could serve as a case study of why the more tiresome ignoramuses tend to be...
O_TS_D_RS
Again - suit yourself. Lots of people take delight in shooting themselves in the foot. I've seen it countless times over the years. The offer was a genuine one, and it remains there for you to take or pass over. If you want to hunt out an "_NS_D_R" lawyer, Godspeed. I wish you all the best with whoever you find, especially so if that professional is willing to do it pro bono publico.
Want a clue? You need to buy a vowel.
I don't need anything.
Why don't you do us all a favor an explain WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO as precisely as you can?
I want to donate a good bit of my professional time to organizations that are trying to better the lives of cab drivers in the Chicago Metropolitan area in any way they think the time can best be put to their use. Those organizations that don't want to take up the offer can muddle along on their own, I suppose - or find help from one of the lawyers who pay for ads in Lutfallah's trade rag. See how many of them are going to be willing to donate even five hours of time.
(Or please leave us alone.)
Your call, young man.
-Mike Foulks, pro se, personally, not ex-officio, that is, Most Extralegally (as related to CCO), in a word: himself.
P.S. I pay a dear sum for the use of a taxi 84 hours a week. Perhaps you could pay me for MY time. My meter is pretty cheap nowadays. Better hurry before we get our deserved fare increase! --- --- --- --- --- ---
Note Bene: my comments above about the cost of time.
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:08:52 EST
Subject: Re: How much should taxi drivers make?
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com
CC: NYTWA1@aol.com, tang11111@hotmail.com, psampat@afsc.org, zybarwulf@comcast.net, Chicdiane7@aol.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, melissacc@comcast.net
In a message dated 12/7/2007 12:23:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, george@chicagodispatcher.com writes:
I'm working on a story for our upcoming issue and would like some input.
Please visit the discussion forum at www.CabMarket.com and post your responses there.
I will consider select responses in my story for next month.
Thank you,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
George === Rather than post a response in the forum, I am going to give you an article to use as you might choose to do. I will send this to you electronically in the next day or two. It takes some time to compose anything worth considering as I am sure you understand.
My perspective is different from that of most other drivers - for better or worse, I have been part of the industry for close to 40 years having begun to drive at the time of the Democratic National Convention of 1968 ("The Whole World is Watching"). Not having driven since 1975, my knowledge of what drivers make is only by way of hearsay from them = that, and access to thousands of driver tax returns used to prepare affidavits concerning the value of time lost by drivers after they were hurt. I know the returns reflected only just a small portion of their income - save for perhaps half a dozen drivers who like me were super patriots and told the absolute truth and paid a fair measure of taxes to this great country of ours.
I also know that over half of the drivers didn't report a dime of income - they lived under the table and continue to do so right down to the present. Over the years, I have presented thousands of injury claims for drivers who had to say they continued to work while hurt rather than have to admit they just didn't file tax returns - they lost plenty of time, but they couldn't prove it without exposing themselves to prosecution for tax evasion or causing them to be impeached in court.
To get a measure of what cab drivers make and, through that, what they should make, you are going to need to get honest cab drivers. This is a tough commodity to find. I doubt I've come across half a dozen who told the truth in a Form 1040 in 32 years of representing them - I've had over 5000 cab drivers as clients over the years. Of course, the pervasive dishonesty among drivers in respect to income reportage makes it much the more difficult to gather reliable statistics to present to Commissioner Reyes or the Transportation Committee in making a case for a meter raise.
But in the 21st Century there ARE ways to get at some of the numbers: meters DO keep tabs on revenue a cab generates - it's done electronically, and those meters have no motivation to lie. Prognostication based on what meters show along with the cost of gasoline, mechanical work, car washes, license fees, interest payments on loans used to purchase cars and/or medallions and typical costs of fines at 400 West Superior can be used to get to a reasonable approximation of the gross income of a typical driver - without taking tips into consideration, of course. That figure varies from driver to driver because many spend a good bit of a 12 hour shift sitting in restaurants, OTB parlors, the lot at O'Hare, sleeping at home or dozing at posts, etc. Plenty of them are "minute men" these days: the kind who drive from 5:00 A.M. until 5:59 P.M. when they get to the gas pump. They have to be. But there are all types.
Further detail will follow in the next couple of days as indicated above. The gathering of figures is no small task because of the obstacles the drivers present for themselves, and I do believe this is the only way the DCS and the City are ever going to be sold on a significant fare hike. Homework is hard to do in an industry where the participants are so fiercely independent.
Yours truly,
Donald Nathan
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:16:18 EST
Subject: Re: What did I do wrong?
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, barbj2799@comcast.net, NYTWA1@aol.com, Blount86@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, hamid@latwa.org, Harrowgate@aol.com, Jim4Safety@aol.com, JKLEEMAN@aol.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, kingsleyliu3@hotmail.com, melissacci@yahoo.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, naim23@gmail.com, psampat@afsc.org, aaajiji@hotmail.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net, qqqz@worldnet.att.net, bestpartition@verizon.net
CC: george@chicagodispatcher.com, george@cabmarket.com
George - I am volunteering to represent Yi Tang in respect to your concern expressed about an e-mail he evidently sent out to a few people earlier today. Rest assured that each and every one of those people had read any material that may have appeared in your Chicago Dispatcher before Tang may have sent out the e-mail. To the extent any of them reread your copyrighted material - most unlikely did this happen - no damage was done to you that would be cognizable in any court action.
We have a saying in the law: ****um absque injuria. It means you may have suffered damage, but it was without injury.
Apart from any want of damage, I assure you my client is in no position to pay any judgment you might win against him. Any victory against him would be utterly pyrrhic.
I am happy to discuss the matter with you or any lawyer you might retain to represent you or your publication.
Donald Nathan, Esq.
630-758-1500
In a message dated 12/13/2007 8:49:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
Please do not copy George's work, if I am the source of any copy right violations.
He is not happy about it, and I don't know if I have ever done anything worng.
Yi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tang11111@hotmail.com
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject: RE:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:11:18 -0600
Please be specific... What did I do wrong?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:09:01 -0700
From: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject: RE:
To: tang11111@hotmail.com
Don't act stupid.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE:
From: Yi Tang
Date: Thu, December 13, 2007 7:07 pm
To: George Lutfallah
What happened?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:06:15 -0700
From: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject:
To: tang11111@hotmail.com
Mr. Tang:
I have asked you politely in the past not to copy my work and send it out. Why have you not respected that?
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
=
Mr. Nathan,
We have a saying in the Court of Public Opinion...
The Un-Adultered Truth can be D.A.M.N.I.N.G.!!!
I'd be glad to be sued by such a sorry excuse for a lawyer for any injury or damage you'd like to claim.
You'd have to prove to the Judge or Jury that you are worthy of restoration, first, I think. Good luck!
-Mike Foulks, President, Chicago Cabdriver Organization (CCO)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
From: Demerdard@aol.com View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:16:18 EST
Subject: Re: What did I do wrong?
To: tang11111@hotmail.com, barbj2799@comcast.net, NYTWA1@aol.com, Blount86@aol.com, Chicdiane7@aol.com, hamid@latwa.org, Harrowgate@aol.com, Jim4Safety@aol.com, JKLEEMAN@aol.com, junningz@sbcglobal.net, kingsleyliu3@hotmail.com, melissacci@yahoo.com, chinatownmike@yahoo.com, naim23@gmail.com, psampat@afsc.org, aaajiji@hotmail.com, zybarwulf@comcast.net, qqqz@worldnet.att.net, bestpartition@verizon.net
CC: george@chicagodispatcher.com, george@cabmarket.com
George - I am volunteering to represent Yi Tang in respect to your concern expressed about an e-mail he evidently sent out to a few people earlier today. Rest assured that each and every one of those people had read any material that may have appeared in your Chicago Dispatcher before Tang may have sent out the e-mail. To the extent any of them reread your copyrighted material - most unlikely did this happen - no damage was done to you that would be cognizable in any court action.
We have a saying in the law: ****um absque injuria. It means you may have suffered damage, but it was without injury.
Apart from any want of damage, I assure you my client is in no position to pay any judgment you might win against him. Any victory against him would be utterly pyrrhic.
I am happy to discuss the matter with you or any lawyer you might retain to represent you or your publication.
Donald Nathan, Esq.
630-758-1500
In a message dated 12/13/2007 8:49:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
Please do not copy George's work, if I am the source of any copy right violations.
He is not happy about it, and I don't know if I have ever done anything worng.
Yi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tang11111@hotmail.com
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject: RE:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:11:18 -0600
Please be specific... What did I do wrong?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:09:01 -0700
From: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject: RE:
To: tang11111@hotmail.com
Don't act stupid.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE:
From: Yi Tang
Date: Thu, December 13, 2007 7:07 pm
To: George Lutfallah
What happened?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:06:15 -0700
From: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject:
To: tang11111@hotmail.com
Mr. Tang:
I have asked you politely in the past not to copy my work and send it out. Why have you not respected that?
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
=
Mike:
You have caused me no damage, and you have caused me no injury. Even if you had, you're almost certainly judgment proof. A lawsuit against you would serve no purpose. It would be uncollectible. What would be the point?
You have made a fool of yourself. Your Joe McCarthy tactics don't work. The unfortunate circumstance is that your credibility as an organizer is damaged by your tactics. That redounds against the interests of the cabdrivers for whom you claim to be a champion. If that works against the interests of the drivers, I think that too bad.
Mr. Nathan,
The bruises will appear slowly over time as people who really care pick through all of your own e-mails and a few others which are just as relevant today as ever.
It is you who is being made a fool of, Mr. Nathan. You're being taught a lesson for a test you will never pass.
The only thing "working" against anyone is the "truth" of your own words against you, Mr. Nathan.
Maybe Peter Enger will learn from this what "exposing" someone like you really means.
This isn't even the half of it, Mr. Nathan.
Keep a stiff upper lip as you slowly sink underneath the weight of your own words and misdeeds.
It's better that way. Nobody wants to finish off a crying "man".
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mike:
You have caused me no damage, and you have caused me no injury. Even if you had, you're almost certainly judgment proof. A lawsuit against you would serve no purpose. It would be uncollectible. What would be the point?
You have made a fool of yourself. Your Joe McCarthy tactics don't work. The unfortunate circumstance is that your credibility as an organizer is damaged by your tactics. That redounds against the interests of the cabdrivers for whom you claim to be a champion. If that works against the interests of the drivers, I think that too bad.
No need to finish the line.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mr. Nathan,
The bruises will appear slowly over time as people who really care pick through all of your own e-mails and a few others which are just as relevant today as ever.
It is you who is being made a fool of, Mr. Nathan. You're being taught a lesson for a test you will never pass.
The only thing "working" against anyone is the "truth" of your own words against you, Mr. Nathan.
Maybe Peter Enger will learn from this what "exposing" someone like you really means.
This isn't even the half of it, Mr. Nathan.
Keep a stiff upper lip as you slowly sink underneath the weight of your own words and misdeeds.
It's better that way. Nobody wants to finish off a crying "man".
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mike:
You have caused me no damage, and you have caused me no injury. Even if you had, you're almost certainly judgment proof. A lawsuit against you would serve no purpose. It would be uncollectible. What would be the point?
You have made a fool of yourself. Your Joe McCarthy tactics don't work. The unfortunate circumstance is that your credibility as an organizer is damaged by your tactics. That redounds against the interests of the cabdrivers for whom you claim to be a champion. If that works against the interests of the drivers, I think that too bad.
"Names will never hurt you", Mr. Nathan?
You're advocating that for YOUR defense?
Where were those wise words when you and others were chastising me for my "insults"?
These are you own words coming back to haunt you, Mr. Nathan. There are more than revelation of mere "insults"...
The reveal the True Donald S. Nathan with his own words so that all who care may better understand you as I do.
Read carefully, everyone!
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
No need to finish the line.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mr. Nathan,
The bruises will appear slowly over time as people who really care pick through all of your own e-mails and a few others which are just as relevant today as ever.
It is you who is being made a fool of, Mr. Nathan. You're being taught a lesson for a test you will never pass.
The only thing "working" against anyone is the "truth" of your own words against you, Mr. Nathan.
Maybe Peter Enger will learn from this what "exposing" someone like you really means.
This isn't even the half of it, Mr. Nathan.
Keep a stiff upper lip as you slowly sink underneath the weight of your own words and misdeeds.
It's better that way. Nobody wants to finish off a crying "man".
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mike:
You have caused me no damage, and you have caused me no injury. Even if you had, you're almost certainly judgment proof. A lawsuit against you would serve no purpose. It would be uncollectible. What would be the point?
You have made a fool of yourself. Your Joe McCarthy tactics don't work. The unfortunate circumstance is that your credibility as an organizer is damaged by your tactics. That redounds against the interests of the cabdrivers for whom you claim to be a champion. If that works against the interests of the drivers, I think that too bad.
Mike:
If you've come off your manic phase and given a moment of thought to what you've just done, you might come to understand that no one is going to have read the mound of trash you posted. I had someone mention that he started yawning after reading two of them - he's one of the more likely to read any. It's just tripe.
Wolf Weiss made a good suggestion. Try a voluntary admission somewhere like Oak Forest where they take you without insurance if you have none. After they figure out whatever it is that has your knickers in a twist, they can dose you with some sort of chemical magic bullet. With a more stable mood, you are apt to be able to be a more effective voice for the Chicago cabdrivers you should hope to continue organize.
In the short run, we all offer you sympathies for your problems, whatever they may be.
Respectfully yours,
Donald Nathan
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
"Names will never hurt you", Mr. Nathan?
You're advocating that for YOUR defense?
Where were those wise words when you and others were chastising me for my "insults"?
These are you own words coming back to haunt you, Mr. Nathan. There are more than revelation of mere "insults"...
The reveal the True Donald S. Nathan with his own words so that all who care may better understand you as I do.
Read carefully, everyone!
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
No need to finish the line.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mr. Nathan,
The bruises will appear slowly over time as people who really care pick through all of your own e-mails and a few others which are just as relevant today as ever.
It is you who is being made a fool of, Mr. Nathan. You're being taught a lesson for a test you will never pass.
The only thing "working" against anyone is the "truth" of your own words against you, Mr. Nathan.
Maybe Peter Enger will learn from this what "exposing" someone like you really means.
This isn't even the half of it, Mr. Nathan.
Keep a stiff upper lip as you slowly sink underneath the weight of your own words and misdeeds.
It's better that way. Nobody wants to finish off a crying "man".
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mike:
You have caused me no damage, and you have caused me no injury. Even if you had, you're almost certainly judgment proof. A lawsuit against you would serve no purpose. It would be uncollectible. What would be the point?
You have made a fool of yourself. Your Joe McCarthy tactics don't work. The unfortunate circumstance is that your credibility as an organizer is damaged by your tactics. That redounds against the interests of the cabdrivers for whom you claim to be a champion. If that works against the interests of the drivers, I think that too bad.
Mr. Nathan,
Some of your criticism holds water. I must go back and better present your own words to make them easier to read, so that most everybody will come to understand you better.
Are your own words "trash", Mr. Nathan?
This is the first of a COMPLETE set of your e-mails, among others.
I've already chastised Wolf Weiss for using the very real world of the mentally ill in a failed attempt to ridicule or belittle me.
Shame on you too, Mr. Nathan.
Your hollow words ring much louder and farther than either you or Wolf realize.
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mike:
If you've come off your manic phase and given a moment of thought to what you've just done, you might come to understand that no one is going to have read the mound of trash you posted. I had someone mention that he started yawning after reading two of them - he's one of the more likely to read any. It's just tripe.
Wolf Weiss made a good suggestion. Try a voluntary admission somewhere like Oak Forest where they take you without insurance if you have none. After they figure out whatever it is that has your knickers in a twist, they can dose you with some sort of chemical magic bullet. With a more stable mood, you are apt to be able to be a more effective voice for the Chicago cabdrivers you should hope to continue organize.
In the short run, we all offer you sympathies for your problems, whatever they may be.
Respectfully yours,
Donald Nathan
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
"Names will never hurt you", Mr. Nathan?
You're advocating that for YOUR defense?
Where were those wise words when you and others were chastising me for my "insults"?
These are you own words coming back to haunt you, Mr. Nathan. There are more than revelation of mere "insults"...
The reveal the True Donald S. Nathan with his own words so that all who care may better understand you as I do.
Read carefully, everyone!
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
No need to finish the line.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mr. Nathan,
The bruises will appear slowly over time as people who really care pick through all of your own e-mails and a few others which are just as relevant today as ever.
It is you who is being made a fool of, Mr. Nathan. You're being taught a lesson for a test you will never pass.
The only thing "working" against anyone is the "truth" of your own words against you, Mr. Nathan.
Maybe Peter Enger will learn from this what "exposing" someone like you really means.
This isn't even the half of it, Mr. Nathan.
Keep a stiff upper lip as you slowly sink underneath the weight of your own words and misdeeds.
It's better that way. Nobody wants to finish off a crying "man".
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mike:
You have caused me no damage, and you have caused me no injury. Even if you had, you're almost certainly judgment proof. A lawsuit against you would serve no purpose. It would be uncollectible. What would be the point?
You have made a fool of yourself. Your Joe McCarthy tactics don't work. The unfortunate circumstance is that your credibility as an organizer is damaged by your tactics. That redounds against the interests of the cabdrivers for whom you claim to be a champion. If that works against the interests of the drivers, I think that too bad.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH/YI TANG 12/14/07:
DN:George - I am volunteering to represent Yi Tang in respect to your concern expressed about an e-mail he evidently sent out to a few people earlier today. Rest assured that each and every one of those people had read any material that may have appeared in your Chicago Dispatcher before Tang may have sent out the e-mail. To the extent any of them reread your copyrighted material - most unlikely did this happen - no damage was done to you that would be cognizable in any court action.
We have a saying in the law: ****um absque injuria. It means you may have suffered damage, but it was without injury.
Apart from any want of damage, I assure you my client is in no position to pay any judgment you might win against him. Any victory against him would be utterly pyrrhic.
I am happy to discuss the matter with you or any lawyer you might retain to represent you or your publication.
Donald Nathan, Esq.
630-758-1500
In a message dated 12/13/2007 8:49:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
YT:Please do not copy George's work, if I am the source of any copy right violations.
He is not happy about it, and I don't know if I have ever done anything worng.
Yi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tang11111@hotmail.com
To: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject: RE:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:11:18 -0600
YT:Please be specific... What did I do wrong?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:09:01 -0700
From: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject: RE:
To: tang11111@hotmail.com
GL:Don't act stupid.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE:
From: Yi Tang
Date: Thu, December 13, 2007 7:07 pm
To: George Lutfallah
YT:What happened?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:06:15 -0700
From: george@chicagodispatcher.com
Subject:
To: tang11111@hotmail.com
GL:Mr. Tang:
I have asked you politely in the past not to copy my work and send it out. Why have you not respected that?
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH 12/8/07:
GL:I'm working on a story for our upcoming issue and would like some input.
Please visit the discussion forum at www.CabMarket.com and post your responses there.
I will consider select responses in my story for next month.
Thank you,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
DN:George === Rather than post a response in the forum, I am going to give you an article to use as you might choose to do. I will send this to you electronically in the next day or two. It takes some time to compose anything worth considering as I am sure you understand.
My perspective is different from that of most other drivers - for better or worse, I have been part of the industry for close to 40 years having begun to drive at the time of the Democratic National Convention of 1968 ("The Whole World is Watching"). Not having driven since 1975, my knowledge of what drivers make is only by way of hearsay from them = that, and access to thousands of driver tax returns used to prepare affidavits concerning the value of time lost by drivers after they were hurt. I know the returns reflected only just a small portion of their income - save for perhaps half a dozen drivers who like me were super patriots and told the absolute truth and paid a fair measure of taxes to this great country of ours.
I also know that over half of the drivers didn't report a dime of income - they lived under the table and continue to do so right down to the present. Over the years, I have presented thousands of injury claims for drivers who had to say they continued to work while hurt rather than have to admit they just didn't file tax returns - they lost plenty of time, but they couldn't prove it without exposing themselves to prosecution for tax evasion or causing them to be impeached in court.
To get a measure of what cab drivers make and, through that, what they should make, you are going to need to get honest cab drivers. This is a tough commodity to find. I doubt I've come across half a dozen who told the truth in a Form 1040 in 32 years of representing them - I've had over 5000 cab drivers as clients over the years. Of course, the pervasive dishonesty among drivers in respect to income reportage makes it much the more difficult to gather reliable statistics to present to Commissioner Reyes or the Transportation Committee in making a case for a meter raise.
But in the 21st Century there ARE ways to get at some of the numbers: meters DO keep tabs on revenue a cab generates - it's done electronically, and those meters have no motivation to lie. Prognostication based on what meters show along with the cost of gasoline, mechanical work, car washes, license fees, interest payments on loans used to purchase cars and/or medallions and typical costs of fines at 400 West Superior can be used to get to a reasonable approximation of the gross income of a typical driver - without taking tips into consideration, of course. That figure varies from driver to driver because many spend a good bit of a 12 hour shift sitting in restaurants, OTB parlors, the lot at O'Hare, sleeping at home or dozing at posts, etc. Plenty of them are "minute men" these days: the kind who drive from 5:00 A.M. until 5:59 P.M. when they get to the gas pump. They have to be. But there are all types.
Further detail will follow in the next couple of days as indicated above. The gathering of figures is no small task because of the obstacles the drivers present for themselves, and I do believe this is the only way the DCS and the City are ever going to be sold on a significant fare hike. Homework is hard to do in an industry where the participants are so fiercely independent.
Yours truly,
Donald Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/29/07:
DN:Mr. Foulks --- I must have touched a couple of raw nerves. It certainly wasn't my intent to tweak you. Evidently I did so - to whatever extent you saw my comments offensive, I ask you overlook them and move forward with my honest offer to donate time to you to use as you might find it to the benefit of your organization.
This e-mail is to you and no one else because as far as I am concerned, attorney-client privilege has attached in our communication. When my comments are more impersonal, I may make them public, but for the purpose of setting a few things straight with you, I am directing these remarks to you alone. The copy to my other e-mail account is sent so as to preserve it beyond the day-to-day nonsense of the "demerdard" address.
Bear in mind that my time is ordinarily billed out at $250 per hour; my meter runs like a machine gun compared with yours. But I am telling you flat-out that I gave away 120 hours of that billable time last year to taxi industry groups in and out of the Chicago Metro area as well as to cab drivers whose rights were being abused. My feeling is that it is the obligation of a senior attorney to give back to the community from which he comes.
And I come from a background of seven years behind the wheel of a cab, one of those years full-time (over 84 hours/week - I was what they used to call a "Minute-Man"; that is, I checked into American United at one minute before 6:00 P.M. driving S + Z Cab Co. #2510) as well as 32 years as counsel for well over 5,000 cab drivers. Outsider or no, the reason you don't wear uniforms driving 84 hours a week is because of a lawsuit against the City and the Commissioner filed 30 years ago. The reason you get Work Comp benefits is because of the Yellow Cab case. The reason you get uninsured motorist benefits is because of the Orval McCabe case. Outsider work has put a lot of rights and benefits in your pocket, sir.
You work 84 a week? I work a good bit more than that. Because I'm an old man, I need much less sleep than you: six hours a night is more than enough (168 - 42 = 126). My expectation is that I will donate over 200 hours of time this year one place or another - whether that be on your CCO or elsewhere, it works out to about 4 hours a week (down to 122). I do have to take some amount of time for ordinary daily functions: 3 hours each day cuts my work time down to 101 hours per week. And I do piddle away a few hours here and there on the things I enjoy, none of which are of any concern to you.
The point is that I work about 90 hours per week.
You pay dearly for your cab. So too, I pay for an office, malpractice insurance, postage, bar association dues, mandatory continuing legal education courses, stationary, telephones, court costs, and on and on and on and on and on and on. My overhead is just different from yours. I understand your situation better than you choose to realize. I lived it for years directly, and now I do in just a different way.
Some of my comments are buried in your e-mail below. My offer to be of use to you stands, and I emphasize it again because it is not an empty one. Whether there is an attorney out there among the 13,500 licensed public passenger vehicle chauffeurs is hardly the question. If there is, I question why this person is driving a cab and not practicing law. Why would anyone suffer three years of law school - for most that's a 100+ hour/week commitment - and taking the Bar exam - two months to prepare that's a living hell - to stay behind the wheel of a cab?
I did try to get back to John Rees who called me relative to CCO business. From the 21st to the 27th I was out of Illinois, but I am available generally 24/7/365 via the Internet, the telephone and much more often than not in-person, live in Chicago.
Donald Nathan
MF:Message: Mr. Nathan,
Thank you for your compliments and advice. A traditional work week is 40 hours.
DN:Who works a traditional work week? I never suggested you did. I sure don't.
MF:Cabdrivers work much longer than that.
DN:Look here, young man. I was a cabdriver working much longer than 40 hours a week before you were born. I suspect I know the hours - they haven't changed. My cab sighed from exhaustion every time I checked it in.
MF:Considering that an average nights' sleep is 8 hours, I can reduce the time I could speak with anyone during a week to 112 hours (168-56).
DN:I respect your energy. I'll bet you do fine with much less than 8 hours/night.
MF:I am committed to Chair CCO meetings on the first and third Wednesdays at 3pm, which could take 3 or more hours from the available schedule. I am also committed to spending Mondays and Tuesdays from 3pm to 5pm, possibly longer, meeting with cabdrivers at a fixed location. This reduces the number of hours to 105. (112-(3+2+2))
DN:The time you put into your effort is going to pay in spades. I have every confidence you are going to build your organization from 40 or 50 voting members logarithmically.
MF:I don't think its too selfish of me to reserve 5 hours I might spend with my baby cousins on a moments' notice on Sunday afternoons. (Or to at least watch the Bears game.)
DN:Enjoy! I have four kids, and the youngest is just eight. These are the joys of life, and we're all entitled to a few. Why else suffer all of life's indignities?
MF:Now we have 100 available hours in my schedule. (105-5)
So, "just 8 hours" is either 20% of a regular work schedule or 8% of all my reasonable, available hours to speak with Mr. Sampat or Mr. Weiss. (I'm sure the math is unnecessary at this point.)
DN:You make your point well. But I'll bet the time invested would be worth the trouble for Chicago cab drivers in general.
MF:I consider neither Mr. Sampat nor Mr. Weiss to be worth 1/5th or even 1/13th of my time. That is to say that neither is in the top 5 or top 13 people of importance to make time for. Thus, I have made a generous offer to accept Mr. Weiss suggestion, out of my respect for Mr. Weiss, not Mr. Sampat.
DN:That's encouraging. I don't think it's important to like or respect Prateek Sampat to be effective as an organizer of cab drivers in Chicago.
MF:Mr. Sampat has not asked to see me and has avoided my attempts to speak with him or respond to my requests to document his claims.
DN:That's a bad choice on Sampat's part. But he does things that leave me shaking my head too. I chalk it off to his want of experience in the affairs of life generally. I don't have the impression that he is malicious, however. Perhaps the way you have approached him has made him a bit fearful of you. You are a strong person, and he may feel threatened by your demeanor.
MF:I do not like Mr. Sampat NOT because he is an 'outsider' (which simply means that he is not a cabdriver). I do not like Mr. Sampat because of his conduct.
DN:Call him on his misconduct. Rake him over the coals. I suspect it would benefit cab drivers in general to make your feelings public because it would almost certainly affect Sampat's approach. You need to know that Sampat is not going to go away just because you don't like him. It is better to marshal his support by offering him criticism than it is to hose him for his immature or misguided conduct.
MF:Mr. Weiss is an 'insider' (which simply means that he is a cabdriver). I like Mr. Weiss NOT because he is a cabdriver, but because he (I think proudly) serves as a gadfly when he is at his best.
DN:Weiss is a very bright man with an acid pen. He has his uses, and he's fun to play with for me.
MF:You, Mr. Nathan, are an outsider by the above definition, and I will brand you as a ignorant fool if you continue to insist that there are no insider lawyers among the 13,500 (alleged) cabdrivers licensed by the city.
DN:See above comments. IMO, a lawyer who drives a cab full-time has to be either an ignorant fool or only marginally incompetent as a lawyer. I am probably an ignorant fool, but it isn't because I believe there is a want of legal talent driving cabs.
MF:You are potentially harmful if you are making a presumption that I have concluded that cabdrivers shouldn't deal with outsiders based on my criticism of Mr. Sampat or the fact that I have made a simple distinction between certain individuals so the identities and interests of these individuals can be explained to those who are confused. I have made no such conclusion.
DN:I don't make presumptions. Presumptions arise by operation of various principles in the practice of law. I am not presuming anything with regard to insiders and outsiders. Some people are presumptuous. I am not - of you or of the thought that "...cabdrivers shouldn't deal with outsiders based on [your] criticism of Mr. Sampat..."
MF:Those who are perpetuating such a falsehood are revealing how desperate they are become involved in (to probably control) the organizing effort.
DN:If you are suggesting indirectly that I have some ulterior motive to "control the organizing effort", disabuse yourself of the notion. I see myself in the role of nothing more than a resource person, someone to use as the need warrants it. I'm trying to give back to the community from which I profited rather handsomely over the decades.
MF:Your implication that I don't need to meet with Mr. Weiss because you believe that cabdrivers 'must be thinking the same thoughts' shows your willingness to attribute an absurd statement or belief to me.
DN:That was rather absurd. The point was to make you appreciate that those who you characterize as "outsiders" do have their uses. And the fact that one or another person is an "insider" does not ipso facto make the guy one diddly **** useful to your efforts.
MF:I cannot appreciate this sarcasm because its foundation is faulty. I would ask that you save any deliberate obfuscation of the facts for the judges and juries you face on the behalf of your clients.
DN:It was snide - not sarcastic. The foundation wasn't a consideration. Facts were not being posited for any purpose other than as set out above.
MF:You have failed to fulfill my one request for legal work.
DN:What one request? I told you I'd meet with you, but I cannot do it necessarily when and where you specify. My office is 16 miles directly to the west of Kabob Corner, and the parking is free. Time in the early afternoons is often open as is time around 5:30 to 7:00 P.M. Saturday and Sunday afternoons are usually open as long as I am in town which is 2/3 of the time. Call if you want an appointment: 630-758-1500. Or send me an e-mail.
MF:You jeopardized the site of the CCO election by your predilection for failing to come to the defense of a cabdriver named George Lutfallah, whose only proven 'crime' seems to be that he has been moderately successful at creating the Chicago Dispatcher among other projects. No, more than that, you engaged in a character assassination.
DN:This mope came busting into a meeting with the avowed purpose of derailing the efforts YOU were making to organize. He didn't come in like a bully to be defended by me. Rather, he came in to bellow out in a bombastic way that he wanted to kick my ass. What are you sniffing, Mr. Foulks? You were sitting right to my left when that fellow came in like Bluto in a Popeye cartoon.
MF:Only God knows what else you have done to derail the honest work of others for your own interests. I am not one to sell speculation as a known secret. Do you understand me, Mr. Nathan? God is not the only one who knows. Think carefully.
DN:You are invoking the Almighty to criticize me in some way? How odd. No. I do not understand you. The last thing I want to do is "...to derail the honest work of others..." I don't even want to derail the dishonest work of others for my own interests or anyone else's. Do you understand me, Mr. Foulks? Think carefully.
MF:If you are so disturbed by the term 'outsider', let me 'brand' you with a better moniker: 'unnecessary distraction'.
DN:You don't want free legal help? Suit yourself. The availability of it stands just the same.
MF:If your obfuscation of the facts is not deliberate, that is, if you are an honest fool, I could forgive your ignorance. Your mistake is overvaluing and undervaluing different people and misanalysis in general. However, this situation could serve as a case study of why the more tiresome ignoramuses tend to be...
O_TS_D_RS
DN:Again - suit yourself. Lots of people take delight in shooting themselves in the foot. I've seen it countless times over the years. The offer was a genuine one, and it remains there for you to take or pass over. If you want to hunt out an "_NS_D_R" lawyer, Godspeed. I wish you all the best with whoever you find, especially so if that professional is willing to do it pro bono publico.
MF:Want a clue? You need to buy a vowel.
DN:I don't need anything.
MF:Why don't you do us all a favor an explain WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO as precisely as you can?
DN:I want to donate a good bit of my professional time to organizations that are trying to better the lives of cab drivers in the Chicago Metropolitan area in any way they think the time can best be put to their use. Those organizations that don't want to take up the offer can muddle along on their own, I suppose - or find help from one of the lawyers who pay for ads in Lutfallah's trade rag. See how many of them are going to be willing to donate even five hours of time.
MF:(Or please leave us alone.)
DN:Your call, young man.
MF:-Mike Foulks, pro se, personally, not ex-officio, that is, Most Extralegally (as related to CCO), in a word: himself.
P.S. I pay a dear sum for the use of a taxi 84 hours a week. Perhaps you could pay me for MY time. My meter is pretty cheap nowadays. Better hurry before we get our deserved fare increase! --- --- --- --- --- ---
DN:Note Bene: my comments above about the cost of time.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN TO YI TANG 11/28/07:
DN:You know this one is going to fly - and the consequence for cab drivers is going to be disastrous.
DSN
In a message dated 11/28/2007 2:38:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2007/11/daley-on-board.html
« Stroger admits he's 'stuck' on budget | Main | Foster on air in race to succeed Hastert »
Originally posted: November 27, 2007
Daley on board with latest CTA fix
Posted by Gary Washburn at 3:35 p.m.
Mayor Richard Daley voiced support today for a bill in Springfield that would bring a new source of funding to the Chicago Transit Authority and insisted he is optimistic about its passage.
Daley acknowledged the two potential problems in the way of the idea to use gasoline sales tax revenue collected in the six-county region to bail out mass transit: the diversion would create a hole elsewhere in the state budget, and separate legislation to raise money for road, school and other infrastructure projects still is needed.
The mayor said he has “no idea” how the shortfall would be remedied, but did not appear to care as long as the gas tax measure is passed.
“Everybody has agreed on that,” he said of the bill, in something of an overstatement. “The governor has agreed on that, so what can I tell you?”
Downstate legislators might not support the transit bill as they hold out for a companion measure that would raise money for construction projects. An expansion of gaming has been discussed as a possible source of revenue for infrastructure.
Daley supports the concept of a Chicago gaming facility.
“It is very complicated...when you go into the casino issue, very, very complicated,” he said. But, “you need infrastructure...Especially when the economy becomes difficult, that is what government reinvests into communities.”
The mayor previously supported a proposal to fund public transit with a quarter-cent increase in the Chicago area sales tax, something that failed to win the support of Blagojevich and key legislators.
But so long as the CTA gets what it needs, Daley said it makes no difference to him if that measure is supplanted by the gas tax bill.
“That is what they have come up with,” he said. “The Republicans and Democrats have kind of agreed on this, so when you have agreement like that, you have to go with it.”
The mayor said he hopes the bill will be passed so fare increases and heavy service cuts planned for early next year can be averted.
“You can’t keep people on edges over the Christmas holiday,” he asserted. “And you have all the men and women who work for the CTA. All the bus drivers have families.”
Transit workers have agreed to pension and health care concessions in a pending five-year contract and “it took a lot of courage to do that,” Daley said. “I think we owe them as well.”
Under a proposal that House Speaker Michael Madigan said Monday he now supports, the state’s share of the sales tax collected on gasoline in the six-county Chicago metropolitan area would be diverted to the CTA, Metra and Pace. The concept initially was raised by House Republicans and later backed by Gov. Rod Blagojevich. A House vote on the measure is scheduled for Wednesday.
“I am very optimistic, Daley said. “There has been a lot of ideas floating. I think some of them are getting edged in regards to compromise...I think we look forward to a satisfied resolution, I hope tomorrow.”
Some lawmakers of both parties have been concerned that the measure would create a $385 million gap in the budget because there is no proposal to replace the money.
Mr. Nathan,
How was this "disastrous" for cabdrivers, Mr. Nathan?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN TO YI TANG 11/28/07:
DN:You know this one is going to fly - and the consequence for cab drivers is going to be disastrous.
DSN
In a message dated 11/28/2007 2:38:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2007/11/daley-on-board.html
« Stroger admits he's 'stuck' on budget | Main | Foster on air in race to succeed Hastert »
Originally posted: November 27, 2007
Daley on board with latest CTA fix
Posted by Gary Washburn at 3:35 p.m.
Mayor Richard Daley voiced support today for a bill in Springfield that would bring a new source of funding to the Chicago Transit Authority and insisted he is optimistic about its passage.
Daley acknowledged the two potential problems in the way of the idea to use gasoline sales tax revenue collected in the six-county region to bail out mass transit: the diversion would create a hole elsewhere in the state budget, and separate legislation to raise money for road, school and other infrastructure projects still is needed.
The mayor said he has “no idea” how the shortfall would be remedied, but did not appear to care as long as the gas tax measure is passed.
“Everybody has agreed on that,” he said of the bill, in something of an overstatement. “The governor has agreed on that, so what can I tell you?”
Downstate legislators might not support the transit bill as they hold out for a companion measure that would raise money for construction projects. An expansion of gaming has been discussed as a possible source of revenue for infrastructure.
Daley supports the concept of a Chicago gaming facility.
“It is very complicated...when you go into the casino issue, very, very complicated,” he said. But, “you need infrastructure...Especially when the economy becomes difficult, that is what government reinvests into communities.”
The mayor previously supported a proposal to fund public transit with a quarter-cent increase in the Chicago area sales tax, something that failed to win the support of Blagojevich and key legislators.
But so long as the CTA gets what it needs, Daley said it makes no difference to him if that measure is supplanted by the gas tax bill.
“That is what they have come up with,” he said. “The Republicans and Democrats have kind of agreed on this, so when you have agreement like that, you have to go with it.”
The mayor said he hopes the bill will be passed so fare increases and heavy service cuts planned for early next year can be averted.
“You can’t keep people on edges over the Christmas holiday,” he asserted. “And you have all the men and women who work for the CTA. All the bus drivers have families.”
Transit workers have agreed to pension and health care concessions in a pending five-year contract and “it took a lot of courage to do that,” Daley said. “I think we owe them as well.”
Under a proposal that House Speaker Michael Madigan said Monday he now supports, the state’s share of the sales tax collected on gasoline in the six-county Chicago metropolitan area would be diverted to the CTA, Metra and Pace. The concept initially was raised by House Republicans and later backed by Gov. Rod Blagojevich. A House vote on the measure is scheduled for Wednesday.
“I am very optimistic, Daley said. “There has been a lot of ideas floating. I think some of them are getting edged in regards to compromise...I think we look forward to a satisfied resolution, I hope tomorrow.”
Some lawmakers of both parties have been concerned that the measure would create a $385 million gap in the budget because there is no proposal to replace the money.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN TO MIKE FOULKS 11/27/07:
DN:John Rees called me about a week ago to get together. I tried to get back to him, but we didn't connect. I've been out in California at home for the holiday since then. Perhaps we might try to get together sometime over the next week. I'll be back late tonight, and after a morning in court out in Rockford, I will be generally available in the late afternoons every day to meet.
I expect to be gone from December 6 thorugh 12 and then will be in Chicago until New Year's eve. Please contact John, and let's the three of us get together when it's best for you.
Don Nathan
The attached blurb is well worth reading thorugh in its entirety - it's a good idea to take a couple of lessons from this woman who has built an organization of the size of the one she has.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
Forwarded Message [ Download File ]
From: "Wolfgang J. Weiss"
To: "Yi Tang" , "Diane Santucci" , "Raja L. Khan" , "Salem Qureshi" , "Donald S. Nathan"
Subject: FYI -
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:16:15 -0600
HTML Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer ]
November 18, 2005
"Bhairavi Desai, New York Taxi Workers Alliance"
Welcome to Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai, Executive Director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance. Questions and answers will appear below starting at 1 pm EST on Friday, November 18. You may need to hit refresh periodically during the interview to see the latest responses. Read background
Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us for today's Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai, Executive Director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance.
Bhairavi, what motivated each of you to get involved in social justice work?
Bhairavi Desai
I grew up in a family where both bread-and-butter and social justice were always on the table. My parents were socially conscious. I grew up poor and as I became older and I started to read about the inequities of the world and how inequities are structured and systematic, I also learned about resistance and movements and the power of people to make change. It’s that combination of recognizing exploitation and in that same breath, recognizing the ability of people to transform the world. And that really is, for me, the essence of social change work. And so as I was growing older, I became really politicized by the Palestinian movement as well as the Nicaraguan struggle. I grew up in the ‘80s at the time of Iran-Contra, and it never sat well with me that the US should be dictating to another country the policies and politics of another nation. Even as a 13-year-old, I knew it was wrong. When I would watch the news, I saw Nicaraguans and Palestinians fighting for justice, and they looked like myself and my family and my friends, and so that image really resonated with me. It very much shaped my confidence in social justice movements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detroit, MI
Would you define your organization as a service organization (in service for workers) or a worker-led one or a combination of both?
Bhairavi Desai
We are a combination of both, which means we’re a union. To me, workers are the army of the oppressed. And services are like treating the wounded, services are to bring people back up on their feet so that they can be healthier and safer and stronger to wage the economic battles in the industry. And working people represent a power that is only paralleled by the wealthy in this society. They’re not in power, unlike the wealthy, but when organized, they have power. And especially in a society like this, where everything is about money and maximizing profits, you cannot change society without using the power of labor. And so we, as an organization, are a democratic mass-based membership union of taxicab drivers that are organizing to change their lives through changing working conditions, and through that, changing society as a whole. And by that I mean, when a group of workers for example, settle on a contract, the wages set by that contract become either the new floor or the new ceiling. We want to raise up the floor and destroy that ceiling.
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Walla Walla, WA
How do you bring workers from different ethnic backgrounds whose home country politics may makes folks less apt to trust each other?
Bhairavi Desai
First of all, we don’t deny people’s differences because denying differences means you deny histories. But we create dialogue and conversation to understand those differences and to determine which differences are superficial and created to divide and conquer versus which differences reveal the beautiful complexities of our world. Secondly, we build unity through a common language of struggle and a platform for change. That sounds so simple, but I think ultimately, it’s about our workers trusting the organization, and you best trust something that you have control over and that you can see and understand from the inside out. And so the organization becomes a point of commonality, and the working conditions become the point of unity. This is also the power and the beauty of class-based organizing because while certainly people who are marginalized by racism and xenophobia may experience class exploitation differently, the bottom line is all working people are exploited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Milwaukee, WI
As far as I know, you're not a current or former taxicab driver. Do you think it's important for a worker movement to be led by workers rather than allies such as yourself?
Bhairavi Desai
I think allies have a strategic role to play. I see myself as a representative and extension of the movement. But there’s no doubt that ultimately, it’s the taxi drivers who are the most important people because they hold both the knowledge of the industry as well as the ability to create change through their labor. I remember in 1998, when we had a strike, there were people from the administration who tried to divide the drivers from the organization because I’m not a taxi driver, and the membership saw that as a moment to divide the movement and came to my defense. And so our leadership body within the organization is the organizing committee of which I’m one member, and there’s one other non-driver, but everybody else is a taxi driver. And our general membership of 6,700 are all taxi drivers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Portland, OR
You probably have a broader vision of social justice and equity that you bring to your work, while some or many of the workers/members may only be looking at improving their own personal situations. How do you help bring folks along to see the larger picture - or is that not part of your strategy?
Bhairavi Desai
Actually, most of the drivers that I work alongside with also have a broader vision. Taxi drivers as a whole tend to be fairly political, they follow the news almost as if it’s part of their job, and they interact with people from all social and economic backgrounds. And given that most drivers, 90 percent, are third-world immigrants, they have lived first-hand, for example, the impact of globalization and forced migration. So within our organizing committee, whenever we work on an issue, whether it’s a living wage campaign or a privacy rights campaign, such as we’re working on right now, we examine what are the forces in power that have a stake in the issue and how will power be changed, depending on the results of our campaign. So I think for all of us, as individuals, and most especially as movements, we must see our work in the broader world, particularly at a time of globalization where on one hand, the world seems to get divided into smaller and smaller pieces, and on the other hand, it’s becoming one big global entity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philadelphia, PA
Why did you choose this community to serve?
Bhairavi Desai
Growing up poor and South Asian, the most prominent image of working-class South Asians I could look up to were taxi drivers. And so I always had a great romantic respect and love for drivers. And so my heart was there long before my work was. And politically, I became frustrated by both the feminist movement and the general South Asian community-based movement because of a lack of respect for issues of class. So I wanted to organize specifically working people, but not in a traditional AFL-CIO union, which was also a source of political frustration because it had capitulated to capital decades ago and had such a history of racist and sexist politics inside various locals, which I saw growing up, in my mother’s experiences, in her union. So I really wanted to organize working class and poor people to create change through their power, which to me is reflected in their labor. And so taxi drivers are a perfect constituency. They are perfect agents of change because they are on the margins based on race, class, immigration, as nontraditional workers, as non-unionized workers, and at the same time, they are at the center of the economy because without them, New York City cannot run. It was that contradiction which needed to be resolved, and that can only be done through good organizing. And so they won over my heart and politically and intellectually, I found the work to be exciting. In 33 years of life, it’s the best decision I ever made.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New York, NY
The general 'stereotype' of South Asian communities is that women don't have the same power in society as men. As a female leader, have there been particular challenges you have recognized working in a traditionally male dominated community and workplace?
Bhairavi Desai
It’s not just a stereotype, it’s the reality of patriarchy, not just in South Asia , but throughout the world. Within the South Asian context, feminists would say that while the West sees women as incapable of holding power, the Third World sees women as too inherently powerful and needing of control. When I first started, many people assumed that there was a man in the industry who had brought me to the work, either a father, a brother, or a husband. And for some people, when they saw there was no such man, they thought their role was to fill that position because, again, women need to be controlled. Or women need to be disciplined in order to hold on to positions of power. And so it’s definitely been a struggle with the drivers, the ownership, the regulators, and the media, but what allowed me to change the playing field and to make it a safer and effective ground for me on which I could work was through relationships with drivers. Most drivers, even while maintaining skepticism, they engaged me and gave me the benefit of the doubt that I could be an effective organizer. And once they recognized me as an ally, the other power structures followed. When I was a kid, my grandmother would always tell me that as much as things are stacked against you in this world, ultimately, your own belief in your work can change anything. Well, I would add to my grandmother’s wisdom that it’s both your own work and your belief in people and your belonging to the movement. These things are what allow us to work in social change on a daily basis. If I had a dollar for everyone who has said to me through the years that a young woman of color, second-generation immigrant, can neither change the world nor organize in an all-male industry, we would be a self-funded organization.
I also work with an amazing team of men in the Organizing Committee who have never made me feel less or incapable or unwanted or inadequate for any reason, including my gender. And through their example, other drivers and other men in the industry have had to follow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birmingham, AL
Have you built alliances with other worker organizations in NYC and elsewhere?
Bhairavi Desai
We have allies of other worker organizations and community-based and youth social-justice groups in New York City and in other parts of the world. We learn strategies, tactics, more principled politics, and a better understanding of the power structure from engaging with other organizers. At the moment, we’re forming an international alliance of taxi workers. We have a sister group in Philadelphia ; in Omaha , Nebraska ; in Los Angeles ; and in Toronto , Ontario , Canada ; and there are 15 other groups that are in the process of formation. We see that in the taxi industry throughout the country, there are common practices by the ownership. In essence, each city takes turns being a guinea pig in the experiment of worker exploitation. And again, one group of workers gets used to bring others into line. So the owners have a national group which meets to share strategies on union-busting and maximizing profits, and the only way to balance capital is through organized labor. And so we’re forming an international union so we can stop the experiments at their root before they spread. It’s also just simply heartening to meet other people that you can talk shop with and laugh with and sometimes even cry with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Haven, CT
If I understand correctly you have a very small staff, how do you build leadership within your organization?
Bhairavi Desai
I don’t think staff and leadership are the same thing. Staff are the workers who are able to labor for the organization on a day-to-day basis. Our organizing committee, which is now 15 members, also outreach to the drivers on a day-to-day basis and participate in all the negotiations. And we hold almost daily conference calls on strategizing during the mobilization phase of a campaign. We also have an engaged general membership, where out of the 6,700, there are 500 core members with whom the Organizing Committee communicates on a regular basis. General members must vote on the demand of the campaign and must authorize the Organizing Committee to be able to make a strike call for any given campaign. And the Organizing Committee decides on the strategies and tactics day-to-day for the campaigns and the overall growth of the organization.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago, IL
What advice do you have for other young activists? How can they prepare to be effective?
Bhairavi Desai
First and foremost, love oppressed people and love the work that you do. Have faith that things can change and that each of us has a role. Be ready to work long hours, but know that your labor will not only be valued, but also blessed by people you may never even meet in your entire life. I remember last summer going to the airport taxi lot. It was a Saturday night, and I had gone there to outreach to the drivers. As I was walking to the lot, I thought, drivers will think either I’m really crazy or really unpopular, that I’m spending my Saturday night working at the lot. And each member I saw insisted that I sit with them inside their car, each person turned on the radio and insisted we only talk about life and not about the work. When I walked back to the bus stop to go home, I realized two things: One was that they gave me my Saturday night, and two, as long as that welcoming remained, I would never feel alone again. And so the love and the blessings that you get back from people for just speaking the truth and fighting for the most basic things is the most beautiful feeling, and it’s incomparable to what most people get from their work.
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Leadership for a Changing World
Thanks again for a great discussion. We have time for one more question that we like to ask all of our guests.
How do you sustain yourself and your staff to prevent burnout?
Bhairavi Desai
We have a really close Organizing Committee, very open organization. Just by having conversations about life in general allows you to remember that there’s always another day, and that the fight is never over. Little things, like celebrating everybody’s birthday and acknowledging when there is a loss in their life, sharing that grief, they are reminders that there is love and hope in the organization. And that becomes motivating to walk into the doors for another day. But with all that love and patience, you also have to have intense rage for the exploitation and the uncompromising sense that what is wrong must be fixed That’s what I learn from the drivers every day. It goes back to that question about the role of allies versus worker organizers. For me, when I see how much members of our Organizing Committee and active general members resist and transform and just handle with such amazing clarity, courage, and humor, it motivates me to give it my best for the organization and to be around them and learn from them and work with them with all of my heart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us for today's Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai. For more information on Bhairavi and the New York Taxi Workers Alliance:
Bhairavi Desai
New York Taxi Workers Alliance
37 East 28th St.
Suite 302
New York , NY 10016
Phone: 212-627-5248
Fax: 646-638-4446
Email: nytwa1@aol.com
Bhairavi Desai
Mr. Nathan,
How "big" is Bhairavi Desai's "organization"? How did you determine this?
What is the legal structure of her organization? Is it a "Union"?
What "couple of lessons" are you suggesting we learn?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN TO MIKE FOULKS 11/27/07:
DN:John Rees called me about a week ago to get together. I tried to get back to him, but we didn't connect. I've been out in California at home for the holiday since then. Perhaps we might try to get together sometime over the next week. I'll be back late tonight, and after a morning in court out in Rockford, I will be generally available in the late afternoons every day to meet.
I expect to be gone from December 6 thorugh 12 and then will be in Chicago until New Year's eve. Please contact John, and let's the three of us get together when it's best for you.
Don Nathan
The attached blurb is well worth reading thorugh in its entirety - it's a good idea to take a couple of lessons from this woman who has built an organization of the size of the one she has.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
Forwarded Message [ Download File ]
From: "Wolfgang J. Weiss"
To: "Yi Tang" , "Diane Santucci" , "Raja L. Khan" , "Salem Qureshi" , "Donald S. Nathan"
Subject: FYI -
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:16:15 -0600
HTML Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer ]
November 18, 2005
"Bhairavi Desai, New York Taxi Workers Alliance"
Welcome to Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai, Executive Director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance. Questions and answers will appear below starting at 1 pm EST on Friday, November 18. You may need to hit refresh periodically during the interview to see the latest responses. Read background
Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us for today's Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai, Executive Director of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance.
Bhairavi, what motivated each of you to get involved in social justice work?
Bhairavi Desai
I grew up in a family where both bread-and-butter and social justice were always on the table. My parents were socially conscious. I grew up poor and as I became older and I started to read about the inequities of the world and how inequities are structured and systematic, I also learned about resistance and movements and the power of people to make change. It’s that combination of recognizing exploitation and in that same breath, recognizing the ability of people to transform the world. And that really is, for me, the essence of social change work. And so as I was growing older, I became really politicized by the Palestinian movement as well as the Nicaraguan struggle. I grew up in the ‘80s at the time of Iran-Contra, and it never sat well with me that the US should be dictating to another country the policies and politics of another nation. Even as a 13-year-old, I knew it was wrong. When I would watch the news, I saw Nicaraguans and Palestinians fighting for justice, and they looked like myself and my family and my friends, and so that image really resonated with me. It very much shaped my confidence in social justice movements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Detroit, MI
Would you define your organization as a service organization (in service for workers) or a worker-led one or a combination of both?
Bhairavi Desai
We are a combination of both, which means we’re a union. To me, workers are the army of the oppressed. And services are like treating the wounded, services are to bring people back up on their feet so that they can be healthier and safer and stronger to wage the economic battles in the industry. And working people represent a power that is only paralleled by the wealthy in this society. They’re not in power, unlike the wealthy, but when organized, they have power. And especially in a society like this, where everything is about money and maximizing profits, you cannot change society without using the power of labor. And so we, as an organization, are a democratic mass-based membership union of taxicab drivers that are organizing to change their lives through changing working conditions, and through that, changing society as a whole. And by that I mean, when a group of workers for example, settle on a contract, the wages set by that contract become either the new floor or the new ceiling. We want to raise up the floor and destroy that ceiling.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walla Walla, WA
How do you bring workers from different ethnic backgrounds whose home country politics may makes folks less apt to trust each other?
Bhairavi Desai
First of all, we don’t deny people’s differences because denying differences means you deny histories. But we create dialogue and conversation to understand those differences and to determine which differences are superficial and created to divide and conquer versus which differences reveal the beautiful complexities of our world. Secondly, we build unity through a common language of struggle and a platform for change. That sounds so simple, but I think ultimately, it’s about our workers trusting the organization, and you best trust something that you have control over and that you can see and understand from the inside out. And so the organization becomes a point of commonality, and the working conditions become the point of unity. This is also the power and the beauty of class-based organizing because while certainly people who are marginalized by racism and xenophobia may experience class exploitation differently, the bottom line is all working people are exploited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Milwaukee, WI
As far as I know, you're not a current or former taxicab driver. Do you think it's important for a worker movement to be led by workers rather than allies such as yourself?
Bhairavi Desai
I think allies have a strategic role to play. I see myself as a representative and extension of the movement. But there’s no doubt that ultimately, it’s the taxi drivers who are the most important people because they hold both the knowledge of the industry as well as the ability to create change through their labor. I remember in 1998, when we had a strike, there were people from the administration who tried to divide the drivers from the organization because I’m not a taxi driver, and the membership saw that as a moment to divide the movement and came to my defense. And so our leadership body within the organization is the organizing committee of which I’m one member, and there’s one other non-driver, but everybody else is a taxi driver. And our general membership of 6,700 are all taxi drivers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Portland, OR
You probably have a broader vision of social justice and equity that you bring to your work, while some or many of the workers/members may only be looking at improving their own personal situations. How do you help bring folks along to see the larger picture - or is that not part of your strategy?
Bhairavi Desai
Actually, most of the drivers that I work alongside with also have a broader vision. Taxi drivers as a whole tend to be fairly political, they follow the news almost as if it’s part of their job, and they interact with people from all social and economic backgrounds. And given that most drivers, 90 percent, are third-world immigrants, they have lived first-hand, for example, the impact of globalization and forced migration. So within our organizing committee, whenever we work on an issue, whether it’s a living wage campaign or a privacy rights campaign, such as we’re working on right now, we examine what are the forces in power that have a stake in the issue and how will power be changed, depending on the results of our campaign. So I think for all of us, as individuals, and most especially as movements, we must see our work in the broader world, particularly at a time of globalization where on one hand, the world seems to get divided into smaller and smaller pieces, and on the other hand, it’s becoming one big global entity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philadelphia, PA
Why did you choose this community to serve?
Bhairavi Desai
Growing up poor and South Asian, the most prominent image of working-class South Asians I could look up to were taxi drivers. And so I always had a great romantic respect and love for drivers. And so my heart was there long before my work was. And politically, I became frustrated by both the feminist movement and the general South Asian community-based movement because of a lack of respect for issues of class. So I wanted to organize specifically working people, but not in a traditional AFL-CIO union, which was also a source of political frustration because it had capitulated to capital decades ago and had such a history of racist and sexist politics inside various locals, which I saw growing up, in my mother’s experiences, in her union. So I really wanted to organize working class and poor people to create change through their power, which to me is reflected in their labor. And so taxi drivers are a perfect constituency. They are perfect agents of change because they are on the margins based on race, class, immigration, as nontraditional workers, as non-unionized workers, and at the same time, they are at the center of the economy because without them, New York City cannot run. It was that contradiction which needed to be resolved, and that can only be done through good organizing. And so they won over my heart and politically and intellectually, I found the work to be exciting. In 33 years of life, it’s the best decision I ever made.
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New York, NY
The general 'stereotype' of South Asian communities is that women don't have the same power in society as men. As a female leader, have there been particular challenges you have recognized working in a traditionally male dominated community and workplace?
Bhairavi Desai
It’s not just a stereotype, it’s the reality of patriarchy, not just in South Asia , but throughout the world. Within the South Asian context, feminists would say that while the West sees women as incapable of holding power, the Third World sees women as too inherently powerful and needing of control. When I first started, many people assumed that there was a man in the industry who had brought me to the work, either a father, a brother, or a husband. And for some people, when they saw there was no such man, they thought their role was to fill that position because, again, women need to be controlled. Or women need to be disciplined in order to hold on to positions of power. And so it’s definitely been a struggle with the drivers, the ownership, the regulators, and the media, but what allowed me to change the playing field and to make it a safer and effective ground for me on which I could work was through relationships with drivers. Most drivers, even while maintaining skepticism, they engaged me and gave me the benefit of the doubt that I could be an effective organizer. And once they recognized me as an ally, the other power structures followed. When I was a kid, my grandmother would always tell me that as much as things are stacked against you in this world, ultimately, your own belief in your work can change anything. Well, I would add to my grandmother’s wisdom that it’s both your own work and your belief in people and your belonging to the movement. These things are what allow us to work in social change on a daily basis. If I had a dollar for everyone who has said to me through the years that a young woman of color, second-generation immigrant, can neither change the world nor organize in an all-male industry, we would be a self-funded organization.
I also work with an amazing team of men in the Organizing Committee who have never made me feel less or incapable or unwanted or inadequate for any reason, including my gender. And through their example, other drivers and other men in the industry have had to follow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birmingham, AL
Have you built alliances with other worker organizations in NYC and elsewhere?
Bhairavi Desai
We have allies of other worker organizations and community-based and youth social-justice groups in New York City and in other parts of the world. We learn strategies, tactics, more principled politics, and a better understanding of the power structure from engaging with other organizers. At the moment, we’re forming an international alliance of taxi workers. We have a sister group in Philadelphia ; in Omaha , Nebraska ; in Los Angeles ; and in Toronto , Ontario , Canada ; and there are 15 other groups that are in the process of formation. We see that in the taxi industry throughout the country, there are common practices by the ownership. In essence, each city takes turns being a guinea pig in the experiment of worker exploitation. And again, one group of workers gets used to bring others into line. So the owners have a national group which meets to share strategies on union-busting and maximizing profits, and the only way to balance capital is through organized labor. And so we’re forming an international union so we can stop the experiments at their root before they spread. It’s also just simply heartening to meet other people that you can talk shop with and laugh with and sometimes even cry with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Haven, CT
If I understand correctly you have a very small staff, how do you build leadership within your organization?
Bhairavi Desai
I don’t think staff and leadership are the same thing. Staff are the workers who are able to labor for the organization on a day-to-day basis. Our organizing committee, which is now 15 members, also outreach to the drivers on a day-to-day basis and participate in all the negotiations. And we hold almost daily conference calls on strategizing during the mobilization phase of a campaign. We also have an engaged general membership, where out of the 6,700, there are 500 core members with whom the Organizing Committee communicates on a regular basis. General members must vote on the demand of the campaign and must authorize the Organizing Committee to be able to make a strike call for any given campaign. And the Organizing Committee decides on the strategies and tactics day-to-day for the campaigns and the overall growth of the organization.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago, IL
What advice do you have for other young activists? How can they prepare to be effective?
Bhairavi Desai
First and foremost, love oppressed people and love the work that you do. Have faith that things can change and that each of us has a role. Be ready to work long hours, but know that your labor will not only be valued, but also blessed by people you may never even meet in your entire life. I remember last summer going to the airport taxi lot. It was a Saturday night, and I had gone there to outreach to the drivers. As I was walking to the lot, I thought, drivers will think either I’m really crazy or really unpopular, that I’m spending my Saturday night working at the lot. And each member I saw insisted that I sit with them inside their car, each person turned on the radio and insisted we only talk about life and not about the work. When I walked back to the bus stop to go home, I realized two things: One was that they gave me my Saturday night, and two, as long as that welcoming remained, I would never feel alone again. And so the love and the blessings that you get back from people for just speaking the truth and fighting for the most basic things is the most beautiful feeling, and it’s incomparable to what most people get from their work.
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Leadership for a Changing World
Thanks again for a great discussion. We have time for one more question that we like to ask all of our guests.
How do you sustain yourself and your staff to prevent burnout?
Bhairavi Desai
We have a really close Organizing Committee, very open organization. Just by having conversations about life in general allows you to remember that there’s always another day, and that the fight is never over. Little things, like celebrating everybody’s birthday and acknowledging when there is a loss in their life, sharing that grief, they are reminders that there is love and hope in the organization. And that becomes motivating to walk into the doors for another day. But with all that love and patience, you also have to have intense rage for the exploitation and the uncompromising sense that what is wrong must be fixed That’s what I learn from the drivers every day. It goes back to that question about the role of allies versus worker organizers. For me, when I see how much members of our Organizing Committee and active general members resist and transform and just handle with such amazing clarity, courage, and humor, it motivates me to give it my best for the organization and to be around them and learn from them and work with them with all of my heart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leadership for a Changing World
Thank you for joining us for today's Leadership Talks with Bhairavi Desai. For more information on Bhairavi and the New York Taxi Workers Alliance:
Bhairavi Desai
New York Taxi Workers Alliance
37 East 28th St.
Suite 302
New York , NY 10016
Phone: 212-627-5248
Fax: 646-638-4446
Email: nytwa1@aol.com
Bhairavi Desai
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/23/07:
DN:Mike:
Good for you and good for drivers generally in the Chicago Metro area. My read is that you have the right goals. Your CCO working with other groups can help to form the force that makes a difference when trying to achieve those goals. Please keep me in your loop.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/22/2007 7:54:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
MF:Message: The first Chicago Cabdriver Organization (CCO) Election occurred on November 21, 2007. I, Mike Foulks, have accepted the Presidency of the CCO. I am completing the election process and will post the results here very soon.
I want to thank all the cabdrivers who registered and voted to create the CCO. I wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving Day.
-Mike Foulks, CCO President
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO YI TANG 11/19/07:
YT:It was quite a show on Saturday. I guess that little trick did not serve the purpose as planed.
Sorry that you missed the show. George was way over the ege, and he was like a street ganster when he walked in.
Yi
DN:Look here ---
The important thing is that he should be recognized for what he is - that his misconduct be seen by drivers as gutter level and not self-righteous. I am not sure how it is going to be taken in the wider community of Chicago cabbies in the short run. My expectation is that is that we will do better for it in the longer run as long as the word is spread that gangster tactics cannot silence truth.
That's your obligation. And so too, it's the responsibility of a bunch of concerned people: Wolf, Prakeet, Raja, Diane, Mike Foulks and his sidekick, John Rees and maybe even Melissa.
One way or another, I am going to be taking a more passive role. It is known that I am willing to give of my time for court work - not class action suits that generate fees, but actions seeking injunctive relief. No one seems to take advantage of it as yet. I expect Bhairavi Desai can tell you the import of taking court action. Even if you lose your adversaries take you more seriously.
From 1976 through the end of 1979 I worked for a firm that took more cases to Jury trials than any other in the State of Illinois. The partners didn't give one diddly **** whether any of those cases was won. They knew, and they were 110% right, that the insurance companies would settle ALL of the good cases with them knowing the cost of having to lose those good ones. And most of the cases WERE good ones. The two of those guys did very well - and I still won half of the junk they dumped on my desk.
The point is that the City is never going to take you seriously unless you are willing to go to the mat on the issues that count. The Commissioner and her staff are never going to capitulate on anything that matters to you unless they are defendants over and over and over. The Mayor and the Aldermen laugh up their sleeves right now because they know they can act with impunity with a dysfunctional, fractious body of unorganized cab drivers.
Even if the reportage of Mike Foulks begging was wrong, the public perception is being colored in the press such that drivers will never see relief for what is only going to get worse at the gas pump. Do you really think you're going to get a fare hike begging for it? The only way to achieve anything with politicians is with court action and sheer numbers of organized drivers wielding a collective voice. Foulks' efforts to create that kind of collective voice should be encouraged IMO toward that end.
See if Bhairavi tells you anything different. She has to know this fighting billionaire *******s like Bloomberg and his cronies. She does it with a voice of 10,000 and determination to not back down at the courthouse steps.
At least Dickie Daley loves our town and isn't just in it as an ego trip or for some sick self-aggrandizement. Daley, just like his father, responds favorably to organized groups. Remember, it was an organization that put him into office and that keeps him there.
You are advised again, respectfully, not to circulate this e-mail among any others. You should make the spirit of it heard, not the language.
DSN
Yi Tang and his partner Donald Nathan,
What was the "little trick" you planned?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO YI TANG 11/19/07:
YT:It was quite a show on Saturday. I guess that little trick did not serve the purpose as planed.
Sorry that you missed the show. George was way over the ege, and he was like a street ganster when he walked in.
Yi
DN:Look here ---
The important thing is that he should be recognized for what he is - that his misconduct be seen by drivers as gutter level and not self-righteous. I am not sure how it is going to be taken in the wider community of Chicago cabbies in the short run. My expectation is that is that we will do better for it in the longer run as long as the word is spread that gangster tactics cannot silence truth.
That's your obligation. And so too, it's the responsibility of a bunch of concerned people: Wolf, Prakeet, Raja, Diane, Mike Foulks and his sidekick, John Rees and maybe even Melissa.
One way or another, I am going to be taking a more passive role. It is known that I am willing to give of my time for court work - not class action suits that generate fees, but actions seeking injunctive relief. No one seems to take advantage of it as yet. I expect Bhairavi Desai can tell you the import of taking court action. Even if you lose your adversaries take you more seriously.
From 1976 through the end of 1979 I worked for a firm that took more cases to Jury trials than any other in the State of Illinois. The partners didn't give one diddly **** whether any of those cases was won. They knew, and they were 110% right, that the insurance companies would settle ALL of the good cases with them knowing the cost of having to lose those good ones. And most of the cases WERE good ones. The two of those guys did very well - and I still won half of the junk they dumped on my desk.
The point is that the City is never going to take you seriously unless you are willing to go to the mat on the issues that count. The Commissioner and her staff are never going to capitulate on anything that matters to you unless they are defendants over and over and over. The Mayor and the Aldermen laugh up their sleeves right now because they know they can act with impunity with a dysfunctional, fractious body of unorganized cab drivers.
Even if the reportage of Mike Foulks begging was wrong, the public perception is being colored in the press such that drivers will never see relief for what is only going to get worse at the gas pump. Do you really think you're going to get a fare hike begging for it? The only way to achieve anything with politicians is with court action and sheer numbers of organized drivers wielding a collective voice. Foulks' efforts to create that kind of collective voice should be encouraged IMO toward that end.
See if Bhairavi tells you anything different. She has to know this fighting billionaire *******s like Bloomberg and his cronies. She does it with a voice of 10,000 and determination to not back down at the courthouse steps.
At least Dickie Daley loves our town and isn't just in it as an ego trip or for some sick self-aggrandizement. Daley, just like his father, responds favorably to organized groups. Remember, it was an organization that put him into office and that keeps him there.
You are advised again, respectfully, not to circulate this e-mail among any others. You should make the spirit of it heard, not the language.
DSN
DN:Hello everyone --- Your next meeting will be a productive one without me there. I am going to continue to make myself available for consultation and help as needed principally on a time donated basis. But I am not taking any more time that I could bill to paying clients to come to "meetings" dominated by those who come just to disrupt.
The entire purpose of the bully was to derail your efforts. I cannot allow that to happen. March forward brothers and sisters. Your mission is way too important.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/17/2007 9:15:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
YT:Hello, everyone,
Thanks all for coming today. Our next meeting is going to be on December 15 (Saturday), 2:30 p.m. at
Dominick's-Canal Street #1147
1340 South Canal Street
Chicago, Illinois 60607
The purpose of the meeting will be the same as today, to focus on how to find a way to work together peacefully.
Shall there be a ground rules for the meeting next time?
Your feed-backs and comments are welcome here!
Thanks again for your participations!
Yi Tang
Mr. Nathan,
Was the "entire purpose of the bully" to disrupt or derail?
I thought you apologized for insulting George Lutfallah after he politely declined to attend ANOTHER one of your pointless meetings.
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
DN:Hello everyone --- Your next meeting will be a productive one without me there. I am going to continue to make myself available for consultation and help as needed principally on a time donated basis. But I am not taking any more time that I could bill to paying clients to come to "meetings" dominated by those who come just to disrupt.
The entire purpose of the bully was to derail your efforts. I cannot allow that to happen. March forward brothers and sisters. Your mission is way too important.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/17/2007 9:15:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, tang11111@hotmail.com writes:
YT:Hello, everyone,
Thanks all for coming today. Our next meeting is going to be on December 15 (Saturday), 2:30 p.m. at
Dominick's-Canal Street #1147
1340 South Canal Street
Chicago, Illinois 60607
The purpose of the meeting will be the same as today, to focus on how to find a way to work together peacefully.
Shall there be a ground rules for the meeting next time?
Your feed-backs and comments are welcome here!
Thanks again for your participations!
Yi Tang
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO WOLF WEISS 11/18/07:
DN:Thanks for the chuckle and a bit of education.
DSN
In a message dated 11/18/2007 2:08:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, zybarwulf@comcast.net writes:
WW:Another spelling error! Gosh darn it.
George's last name is (correctly) spelled L U T F A L L A H.
Not L U F T A L L A H. And, no, not L U F T W A F F E (which is not related to current Nazis, German or otherwise, but is the name of the current German Air Force. L U F T W A F F E means "Air Force").
L U T F A L L A H means "Kindness of God." Beautiful thought. But the shoe don't fit, George.
I for one, do not think George is a Nazi, even though he tends to act like an old WW2 storm trooper* with his words and deeds.
Here, in a nut shell, is the general consensus of what people think of George Lutfallah, the Kindness of God, as eloquently stated by several fellow drivers and herein digested into a single statement:
"Based on recent events, (I) think of George as a "girly man" who is too easily affected by rhetorical repartee and one who likes to take offense and screaming (like a little girl) about badmouthing and name calling."
"This is intentionally done by him to deflect us from the issues."
"There are serious issues which need to discussed and resolved. George is making sure we don't have serious discussions or develop reasonable resolutions to the problems."
"He is one of the problems. The sooner drivers get this, the sooner we can make real progress."
"[George's] so-called newspaper is really just a trade jounal for the owners of the big fleets and for the City. He does not fool me."
"Whoever called him an 'attack dog' is perfectly right to do so. It's not the name, it's the connotation that counts."
"His own actions scream louder than his words."
"His words have brought much harm to his brothers and sisters."
-wolf-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sturmabteilung -- a member of the Nazi militia noted for brutality and violence; one who resembles or behaves like a member of the Nazi militia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: For you undereducated ones, if any, George's sir name and namesake has historical significance, even though George himself has none:
Lutf Allah (d. c. 1357/58) was the leader of the Sarbadars of Sabzewar from 1356 until his death.
Lutf Allah was the son of Wajih ad-Din Mas'ud, the second leader of the Sarbadars, and was considered by Mas'ud's adherents to be his legitimate successor. By the reign of Yahya Karawi he had come of age and Mas'ud's supporters were ready to install him as head of state. After the murder of Yahya in c. 1355 they attempted to seize control of the government. They were prevented from doing so by Haidar Qassib, who drove them from Sabzewar and killed many of them. The remaining members of Mas'ud's party fled to Esfarayen, where Lutf Allah's atabeg Nasr Allah rebelled against the central government. The situation for Lutf Allah improved when Haidar Qassib was murdered on the orders of Hasan Damghani. Hasan then had Lutf Allah proclaimed as formal sovereign of the Sarbadars.
Lutf Allah's reign was short and consisted mostly of him acting as a figurehead for Hasan Damghani. During this time Astarabad was lost to Amir Vali. After a few years Lutf Allah got into a disagreement with Hasan Damghani, who deposed and executed him and then took formal control of the state. With Lutf Allah's death the party of Mas'ud was mostly broken.
(Geeorge may have delusions of grandeur due to this.)
----- Original Message -----
From: Wolfgang J. Weiss
To: Peter Zelchenko ; Yi Tang ; Daniel James Szekely ; Diane Santucci ; Prateek Sampat ; Salem Qureshi ; Ifti Nasim ; A. Malik Mujahid ; Naim Mansour ; Fayez Khozindar ; Raja L. Khan ; Rima N. Kapitan ; Mike Foulks ; Bhairavi Desai ; Melissa Callahan ; Farad Al-Taqi
Cc: Steve C. Watts
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Fw: Trained Attack Dog Invades Kabaob Corner
WW:Read it and weep - or laugh - folks.
This one is for the Annals of Taxi History....
Or is it for the Annals of Fools?
---Wolfgang J. Weiss---
Mr. Nathan,
Are you still "chuckling" about this?
Any comments?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO WOLF WEISS 11/18/07:
DN:Thanks for the chuckle and a bit of education.
DSN
In a message dated 11/18/2007 2:08:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, zybarwulf@comcast.net writes:
WW:Another spelling error! Gosh darn it.
George's last name is (correctly) spelled L U T F A L L A H.
Not L U F T A L L A H. And, no, not L U F T W A F F E (which is not related to current Nazis, German or otherwise, but is the name of the current German Air Force. L U F T W A F F E means "Air Force").
L U T F A L L A H means "Kindness of God." Beautiful thought. But the shoe don't fit, George.
I for one, do not think George is a Nazi, even though he tends to act like an old WW2 storm trooper* with his words and deeds.
Here, in a nut shell, is the general consensus of what people think of George Lutfallah, the Kindness of God, as eloquently stated by several fellow drivers and herein digested into a single statement:
"Based on recent events, (I) think of George as a "girly man" who is too easily affected by rhetorical repartee and one who likes to take offense and screaming (like a little girl) about badmouthing and name calling."
"This is intentionally done by him to deflect us from the issues."
"There are serious issues which need to discussed and resolved. George is making sure we don't have serious discussions or develop reasonable resolutions to the problems."
"He is one of the problems. The sooner drivers get this, the sooner we can make real progress."
"[George's] so-called newspaper is really just a trade jounal for the owners of the big fleets and for the City. He does not fool me."
"Whoever called him an 'attack dog' is perfectly right to do so. It's not the name, it's the connotation that counts."
"His own actions scream louder than his words."
"His words have brought much harm to his brothers and sisters."
-wolf-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sturmabteilung -- a member of the Nazi militia noted for brutality and violence; one who resembles or behaves like a member of the Nazi militia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: For you undereducated ones, if any, George's sir name and namesake has historical significance, even though George himself has none:
Lutf Allah (d. c. 1357/5
was the leader of the Sarbadars of Sabzewar from 1356 until his death.
Lutf Allah was the son of Wajih ad-Din Mas'ud, the second leader of the Sarbadars, and was considered by Mas'ud's adherents to be his legitimate successor. By the reign of Yahya Karawi he had come of age and Mas'ud's supporters were ready to install him as head of state. After the murder of Yahya in c. 1355 they attempted to seize control of the government. They were prevented from doing so by Haidar Qassib, who drove them from Sabzewar and killed many of them. The remaining members of Mas'ud's party fled to Esfarayen, where Lutf Allah's atabeg Nasr Allah rebelled against the central government. The situation for Lutf Allah improved when Haidar Qassib was murdered on the orders of Hasan Damghani. Hasan then had Lutf Allah proclaimed as formal sovereign of the Sarbadars.
Lutf Allah's reign was short and consisted mostly of him acting as a figurehead for Hasan Damghani. During this time Astarabad was lost to Amir Vali. After a few years Lutf Allah got into a disagreement with Hasan Damghani, who deposed and executed him and then took formal control of the state. With Lutf Allah's death the party of Mas'ud was mostly broken.
(Geeorge may have delusions of grandeur due to this.)
----- Original Message -----
From: Wolfgang J. Weiss
To: Peter Zelchenko ; Yi Tang ; Daniel James Szekely ; Diane Santucci ; Prateek Sampat ; Salem Qureshi ; Ifti Nasim ; A. Malik Mujahid ; Naim Mansour ; Fayez Khozindar ; Raja L. Khan ; Rima N. Kapitan ; Mike Foulks ; Bhairavi Desai ; Melissa Callahan ; Farad Al-Taqi
Cc: Steve C. Watts
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: Fw: Trained Attack Dog Invades Kabaob Corner
WW:Read it and weep - or laugh - folks.
This one is for the Annals of Taxi History....
Or is it for the Annals of Fools?
---Wolfgang J. Weiss---
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH 11/18/07:
GL:Mr. Tang wrote: "Can we get over with it?"
No. That wasn't the first time your partner Donald Nathan referred to me as a Nazi.
DN:I speak for myself, son. I do not speak for Yi Tang, nor does he for me. I need no defense by him from a rabid dog.
GL:After that I came to your meeting last month. I extended myself, even after being called a Nazi, which I take immense offense to.
DN:Quacks like a duck ...
GL:And what do I get? I'm referred to as a Nazi again.
DN:Quack, woof, woof, woof.
GL:Remember that this is the same Donald Nathan who has repeatedly tried to play himself off as a man with "no axe to grind."
DN:I still have no axe to grind - I didn't come to disrupt that meeting. I came to host it.
GL:My willingness to work with any group that involves Donald Nathan has passed.
DN:You, sir, are a solipsist, a self-focused bully.
I am not part of any group and care not to be. I am available for consultation without charge for groups that seek it - pro bono publico. I am not paid for grinding axes by the fleet owners like you are.
You need the work. I don't. All recognize you for what you are.
GL:Do you understand that or do I need to spoon feed it to you?
DN:You need to take that spoon, fold it up five ways and deposit it where the moon doesn't shine.
Mr. Nathan,
Any comments?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH 11/18/07:
GL:Mr. Tang wrote: "Can we get over with it?"
No. That wasn't the first time your partner Donald Nathan referred to me as a Nazi.
DN:I speak for myself, son. I do not speak for Yi Tang, nor does he for me. I need no defense by him from a rabid dog.
GL:After that I came to your meeting last month. I extended myself, even after being called a Nazi, which I take immense offense to.
DN:Quacks like a duck ...
GL:And what do I get? I'm referred to as a Nazi again.
DN:Quack, woof, woof, woof.
GL:Remember that this is the same Donald Nathan who has repeatedly tried to play himself off as a man with "no axe to grind."
DN:I still have no axe to grind - I didn't come to disrupt that meeting. I came to host it.
GL:My willingness to work with any group that involves Donald Nathan has passed.
DN:You, sir, are a solipsist, a self-focused bully.
I am not part of any group and care not to be. I am available for consultation without charge for groups that seek it - pro bono publico. I am not paid for grinding axes by the fleet owners like you are.
You need the work. I don't. All recognize you for what you are.
GL
o you understand that or do I need to spoon feed it to you?
DN:You need to take that spoon, fold it up five ways and deposit it where the moon doesn't shine.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH/YI TANG, also on 11/17/07 III:
GL:Mr. Tang,
Thank you for inviting me to your meeting. I don't want to waste my time again like I did at your last meeting. Only one full-time taxi driver attended and the discussion was more about badmouthing and discussing people who weren't in attendence than discussing issues. Thus I won't be attending but I do appreciate the invitation.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
George:
DN:I owe you an apology. I like to think I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. I have no doubt but that my use of a *******ization of your name was uncalled for. If you are man enough, you are going to be willing to forgive my indiscretion. Having used that epithet in a private e-mail to Yi Tang, Wolfgang Weiss and Prakeet Sampat, I made a mistake. My judgment is usually better than that.
It is unfortunate that one of the recipients of that e-mail forwarded it on to a third party who is going to go unnamed. That third party forwarded it on to you. Your anger was justified. I humble myself and ask your forgiveness.
You will never call me a coward, however, and expect to get away with it. If your purpose in bursting into that meeting was to derail it - and it may well have been with booming voice and bully like tactic - then Bhairavi Desai was right in her assessment of you expressed in the e-mail that was attached to the chain you were sent. I do hope it was not just your motive to disrupt efforts to organize cab drivers. Perhaps that is for the others to assess.
When you break into a peaceful meeting with stentorian insults directed at me, you need to appreciate that you are only going to get the kind of welcome any ex-Marine gives by way of instinct. I may be double your age, but you are never going to manhandle me like a thug without a response in kind. I apologize for the use of an inappropriate epithet, but you did come into that meeting in just the same way Brownshirts burst into meetings back in the early '30's somewhere well to the east of New York.
If you don't want to be called names, watch the way you conduct yourself. I will do my best to button my lip and to accord you the respect you deserve.
Yours truly,
Donald Nathan, Esq.
Mr. Nathan,
Could you give us a better explanation? We need one.
You call George Lutfallah names behind his back in e-mails to Yi Tang, Wolf Wiess, and Prateek Sampat, right?
He finds out and gets angry about this, right?
He confronts you at Kabob Corner, right?
You apologize, but then you suggest he confronted you because he "wanted to break up a peaceful meeting?
I don't understand your logic.
Are you sure you're taking responsibility for your immature insults towards George Lutfallah?
Why then, would you try to explain his reaction as something else?
Was any of this a "trick" you and Yi Tang planned?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH/YI TANG, also on 11/17/07 III:
GL:Mr. Tang,
Thank you for inviting me to your meeting. I don't want to waste my time again like I did at your last meeting. Only one full-time taxi driver attended and the discussion was more about badmouthing and discussing people who weren't in attendence than discussing issues. Thus I won't be attending but I do appreciate the invitation.
Regards,
George Lutfallah
George:
DN:I owe you an apology. I like to think I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. I have no doubt but that my use of a *******ization of your name was uncalled for. If you are man enough, you are going to be willing to forgive my indiscretion. Having used that epithet in a private e-mail to Yi Tang, Wolfgang Weiss and Prakeet Sampat, I made a mistake. My judgment is usually better than that.
It is unfortunate that one of the recipients of that e-mail forwarded it on to a third party who is going to go unnamed. That third party forwarded it on to you. Your anger was justified. I humble myself and ask your forgiveness.
You will never call me a coward, however, and expect to get away with it. If your purpose in bursting into that meeting was to derail it - and it may well have been with booming voice and bully like tactic - then Bhairavi Desai was right in her assessment of you expressed in the e-mail that was attached to the chain you were sent. I do hope it was not just your motive to disrupt efforts to organize cab drivers. Perhaps that is for the others to assess.
When you break into a peaceful meeting with stentorian insults directed at me, you need to appreciate that you are only going to get the kind of welcome any ex-Marine gives by way of instinct. I may be double your age, but you are never going to manhandle me like a thug without a response in kind. I apologize for the use of an inappropriate epithet, but you did come into that meeting in just the same way Brownshirts burst into meetings back in the early '30's somewhere well to the east of New York.
If you don't want to be called names, watch the way you conduct yourself. I will do my best to button my lip and to accord you the respect you deserve.
Yours truly,
Donald Nathan, Esq.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH ALSO ON 11/17/07 II:
YT?:It will have two there for sure George, Me and Mr. Nathan.
YT?:Don you think that we cannot meet?
DN:I know we can meet and that we will meet. If George Lutfallah thinks it's a waste of his precious time, let him understand that I could be doing some other work that I bill at $250 per hour instead.
My commitment to the taxi industry is not profit based. I don't depend on revenue from Flash or AUCA or Globe or the like to get by. If Mr. Lutfallah is sincerely interested in making the lives of our brothers and sisters a little better, he'll come. If he's just in it for th e almighty buck and doesn't give a ****, he'll play attack dog and respond in a vicious way - even more so than his first e-mail of this afternoon.
Regardless of who shows up to discuss ISSUES, I will be there along with you. We will make some sort of progress, however much or little I do not really care.
Donald Nathan
Mr. Nathan,
Why did you threaten to quit helping or suggest that you might not give cabdrivers your "$250 per hour legal advice" for free if George Lutfallah wouldn't attend your meetings?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH ALSO ON 11/17/07 II:
YT?:It will have two there for sure George, Me and Mr. Nathan.
YT? on you think that we cannot meet?
DN:I know we can meet and that we will meet. If George Lutfallah thinks it's a waste of his precious time, let him understand that I could be doing some other work that I bill at $250 per hour instead.
My commitment to the taxi industry is not profit based. I don't depend on revenue from Flash or AUCA or Globe or the like to get by. If Mr. Lutfallah is sincerely interested in making the lives of our brothers and sisters a little better, he'll come. If he's just in it for th e almighty buck and doesn't give a ****, he'll play attack dog and respond in a vicious way - even more so than his first e-mail of this afternoon.
Regardless of who shows up to discuss ISSUES, I will be there along with you. We will make some sort of progress, however much or little I do not really care.
Donald Nathan
GL:Will it matter if anyone shows up?
Regards,
George Lutfallah
Chicago Dispatcher
DN:George ~~~ You won't know unless you come. Of course, if it's a waste of time, you can report it as such. Maybe it will be, but your failure to attend is not going to derail efforts drivers make in the Chicago Metro area to better their lives. We - Yi Tang and I, that is - aren't in this for profit.
Donald Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH'S REPLY TO YI TANG ON 11/17/07:
GL:Mr. Tang,
Thank you for inviting me to your meeting. I don't want to waste my time again like I did at your last meeting. Only one full-time taxi driver attended
DN:It occurs to me, Mr. Lutfallah, that you too are not a "full-time taxi driver". I do believe that you still have valuable things to say, and your opinions are respected.
GL:and the discussion was more about badmouthing and discussing people who weren't in attendence {sic} than discussing issues.
DN:The attendance was missing some important people, but without you there, it would be far less fruitful a meeting. I do hope your reportage will not be colored by your evident distain for those who give a **** about those who do not pay for advertising in a trade rag to get along in life.
Hopefully we can get to more "issues" today. Pity it is that you won't be there to report on it. But then I guess you feel the taxi press should only cover other matters, and the editorial policy that gets paid for by the fleet owners is set by you, not us.
GL:Thus I won't be attending but I do appreciate the invitation.
DN:You are invited to the next meeting -- who knows, you might seize the day and come in spite of the fact that you regard our efforts as a waste of your time.
GL:Regards,
George Lutfallah
Regards back, sir.
Donald Nathan
Mr. Nathan,
Why did you want George Lutfallah to attend any of your meetings?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO GEORGE LUTFALLAH'S REPLY TO YI TANG ON 11/17/07:
GL:Mr. Tang,
Thank you for inviting me to your meeting. I don't want to waste my time again like I did at your last meeting. Only one full-time taxi driver attended
DN:It occurs to me, Mr. Lutfallah, that you too are not a "full-time taxi driver". I do believe that you still have valuable things to say, and your opinions are respected.
GL:and the discussion was more about badmouthing and discussing people who weren't in attendence {sic} than discussing issues.
DN:The attendance was missing some important people, but without you there, it would be far less fruitful a meeting. I do hope your reportage will not be colored by your evident distain for those who give a **** about those who do not pay for advertising in a trade rag to get along in life.
Hopefully we can get to more "issues" today. Pity it is that you won't be there to report on it. But then I guess you feel the taxi press should only cover other matters, and the editorial policy that gets paid for by the fleet owners is set by you, not us.
GL:Thus I won't be attending but I do appreciate the invitation.
DN:You are invited to the next meeting -- who knows, you might seize the day and come in spite of the fact that you regard our efforts as a waste of your time.
GL:Regards,
George Lutfallah
Regards back, sir.
Donald Nathan
THIS IS YI TANG ON 11/14/07:
YT:Hello, everyone!
Mr. Nathan and I are going to host our third monthly meeting at Kabob Corner, 760 W. Jackson, on this Saturday (November 17), at 2:30 p.m.. If you missed our last meeting, I wish that you are going to make it this time.
I wish that this forum would be kept open for everyone, and
Thanks all for your participations!
Yi Tang
Yi Tang (or partner Donald Nathan),
Why did you choose Kabob Corner for the site of this meeting, a half an hour before I was known to be arriving there?
Does either of you care to describe this meeting?
How about posting some of the e-mails which led up to and shortly after this meeting?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS YI TANG ON 11/14/07:
YT:Hello, everyone!
Mr. Nathan and I are going to host our third monthly meeting at Kabob Corner, 760 W. Jackson, on this Saturday (November 17), at 2:30 p.m.. If you missed our last meeting, I wish that you are going to make it this time.
I wish that this forum would be kept open for everyone, and
Thanks all for your participations!
Yi Tang
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 11/14/07:
DN:Gee --- I guess I'm an outsider again. As far as I know, I don't have a drop of Muslim blood, but I sure sympathize with these distant cousins of mine. Does being 3/8 Jewish help? I'm a child of Abraham too. Just the same, I'd volunteer time to help this group in a heartbeat if allowed.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/14/2007 12:11:30 A.M. Central Standard Time, zybarwulf@comcast.net writes:
From The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association Handout:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
On Thursday, November 1st 2007, we had our first meeting with the city's officials concerning the parking tickets we received while praying. From the city's side, there was Commissioner of the consumer service, N. Reyes and her assistant plus three officials from the Department of Aviation, three from the City of Chicago's Human Relations, one
from the City of Chicago's Arab Affair Committee, and one more from the Law Department from the City of Chicago.
From the driver's side there were six members, including Dr. Sattar, the president of the Muslim Community Center of Chicago.
This meeting tasted two hours, during which good and frank exchange of ideas about how we can reach a satisfactory conclusion, and both sides expressed their interest and insistent on keeping the flow of the cabs to the terminals free from all obstacles or blocking. Therefore, we urge all drivers not to park around the shelters, and keep the short-trip lane clear from all parking cabs.
Brothers; To follow with this endeavor with the city of Chicago, we have to organize ourselves, since we represent 65% of the driving force, and we must expand our steering committee. Therefore we need one representative and one alternative from each ethnic group, as a first step towards the establishment of 'The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association" so we can defend our legitimate interest in the long run. I urge all the groups to discuss this matter among themselves and when you finish your caucus and choose your representative and your alternative. Please be free to call and report your choices by calling this number: 312-343-5831. Wasalaamu-alaykum.
Mr. Nathan,
Why were you mocking my position on not allowing people who aren't current Chicago cabdrivers into a group of current Chicago cabdrivers? Gee, I wonder why.
Why are you so ignorant of your Muslim "cousins"? Are you so ignorant of and out of touch with current Chicago cabdrivers that you don't understand that Islam is a RELIGION and not a RACE? What does "bloodlines" have to do with it?
Didn't you earlier say that you weren't "Asian or Jewish"? Why are you suddenly claiming to be "3/8 Jewish"?
Did you ever approach the organizers of this group and offer your "free legal advice"?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 11/14/07:
DN:Gee --- I guess I'm an outsider again. As far as I know, I don't have a drop of Muslim blood, but I sure sympathize with these distant cousins of mine. Does being 3/8 Jewish help? I'm a child of Abraham too. Just the same, I'd volunteer time to help this group in a heartbeat if allowed.
Donald Nathan
In a message dated 11/14/2007 12:11:30 A.M. Central Standard Time, zybarwulf@comcast.net writes:
From The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association Handout:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful
On Thursday, November 1st 2007, we had our first meeting with the city's officials concerning the parking tickets we received while praying. From the city's side, there was Commissioner of the consumer service, N. Reyes and her assistant plus three officials from the Department of Aviation, three from the City of Chicago's Human Relations, one
from the City of Chicago's Arab Affair Committee, and one more from the Law Department from the City of Chicago.
From the driver's side there were six members, including Dr. Sattar, the president of the Muslim Community Center of Chicago.
This meeting tasted two hours, during which good and frank exchange of ideas about how we can reach a satisfactory conclusion, and both sides expressed their interest and insistent on keeping the flow of the cabs to the terminals free from all obstacles or blocking. Therefore, we urge all drivers not to park around the shelters, and keep the short-trip lane clear from all parking cabs.
Brothers; To follow with this endeavor with the city of Chicago, we have to organize ourselves, since we represent 65% of the driving force, and we must expand our steering committee. Therefore we need one representative and one alternative from each ethnic group, as a first step towards the establishment of 'The Muslim Limo and Taxi Driver's Association" so we can defend our legitimate interest in the long run. I urge all the groups to discuss this matter among themselves and when you finish your caucus and choose your representative and your alternative. Please be free to call and report your choices by calling this number: 312-343-5831. Wasalaamu-alaykum.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/14/07:
MF:I've gotten drunk in the same bar as Steve, though I'm sure it would take an effort to get him to remember me considering how long ago that was.
DN:I went to junior high and high school with Michael Douglas. He was the quarterback on the junior high football team. I was just a tackle, but at our 40th reunion he still remembered me. I haven't a clue who "Steve" might be, but perhaps there are famous ones whose last names I can't recall.
MF:I think we attended the same high school but during different years.
DN:I sat in history classes in college with Carol Mosley Braun, but she would have no memory of me.
MF:I am maintaining a regular presence at Kabob Corner in Greektown from 3pm-4pm everyday until our CCO election on the 21st.
DN:I am aware of this daily event - a good idea for organizing, and it's at a good time for the restaurant if it draws business in.
MF:I think that Wednesday is now out of the running, but perhaps John and I can agree to meet you for an informal dinner at 5pm or so near your house, or an earlier one here near Greektown.
DN:I'm happy to meet you at 5:00 P.M. today near here, but not for a dinner. It's just too early for me to eat. I have a conference room where we can get together if you like. I'm just to the north of Roosevelt, just to the south of Butterfield, just to the east of Route 83, just to the west of York Road. It's One Elm Creek Drive. If you do want to meet, call me at 1-888-NATHAN-1 and leave a message on the voice mail.
MF:I didn't quite understand if your dinner with your daughters is blocking out just Wednesday or everyday.
DN:I have three daughters, but only one lives in Chicago. We're getting together on Friday night for dinner, and likely it will be in Greektown because she lives not far from there. I get together with her about once a month, not that it should matter to you particularly what my personal family schedule is. I only mentioned it because I wouldn't have been able to meet with you on Friday. Tomorrow, I'm off to the opera; I couldn't meet with you on Thursday. You wanted to meet before Saturday's meeting, so I was just giving you my availability.
Mr. Nathan,
You claimed that you recognized your clients by their first names a few days earlier, mention Steve Lauria, but when I refer to him a "Steve", you don't know who I'm referring to?
Do you have problems with your memory associated with your advanced age, Mr. Nathan?
Is Steve Lauria still a client of yours?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/14/07:
MF:I've gotten drunk in the same bar as Steve, though I'm sure it would take an effort to get him to remember me considering how long ago that was.
DN:I went to junior high and high school with Michael Douglas. He was the quarterback on the junior high football team. I was just a tackle, but at our 40th reunion he still remembered me. I haven't a clue who "Steve" might be, but perhaps there are famous ones whose last names I can't recall.
MF:I think we attended the same high school but during different years.
DN:I sat in history classes in college with Carol Mosley Braun, but she would have no memory of me.
MF:I am maintaining a regular presence at Kabob Corner in Greektown from 3pm-4pm everyday until our CCO election on the 21st.
DN:I am aware of this daily event - a good idea for organizing, and it's at a good time for the restaurant if it draws business in.
MF:I think that Wednesday is now out of the running, but perhaps John and I can agree to meet you for an informal dinner at 5pm or so near your house, or an earlier one here near Greektown.
DN:I'm happy to meet you at 5:00 P.M. today near here, but not for a dinner. It's just too early for me to eat. I have a conference room where we can get together if you like. I'm just to the north of Roosevelt, just to the south of Butterfield, just to the east of Route 83, just to the west of York Road. It's One Elm Creek Drive. If you do want to meet, call me at 1-888-NATHAN-1 and leave a message on the voice mail.
MF:I didn't quite understand if your dinner with your daughters is blocking out just Wednesday or everyday.
DN:I have three daughters, but only one lives in Chicago. We're getting together on Friday night for dinner, and likely it will be in Greektown because she lives not far from there. I get together with her about once a month, not that it should matter to you particularly what my personal family schedule is. I only mentioned it because I wouldn't have been able to meet with you on Friday. Tomorrow, I'm off to the opera; I couldn't meet with you on Thursday. You wanted to meet before Saturday's meeting, so I was just giving you my availability.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
MF:I'll communicate with John Rees.
DN:I'm somewhat acquainted with Rees, although it's indirect. The Party Cab, #3877, is owned by Luxor, Inc. I represent Steve Lauria, the owns of the company behind that medallion. I need to make that disclosure to both you and Rees. My professional tie to Lauria is in respect to the collection of property damage, and I have worked for his various corporations for about 15 years. I see no conflict of interest between Rees and any of Lauria's corporations or with Lauria.
MF:I think we would like to meet you before Saturday (in the afternoon- how about Wednesday, maybe at 7PM?) because the conversation might be a bit lenghtier and more productive than you might think.
DN:7:00 P.M. may be the afternoon for you, but not for me. I expect to be having dinner with one of my daughters at about that time. If you would like to get together at about 3:00 P.M. or at 11:00 A.M., I can budget a sufficient amount of time to give to you both.
DN:Rees is a very motivated individual beyond the personal issues with the "Party Cab" and we are not joined at the hip in our opinions, but we've found mutual respect for discussing our differences and have influenced each other's changing attitudes towards the entirety of this organizing effort. I want to make clear my "insider/outsider" postion clear...it has caused people to put words in my mouth or attribute opinions to me which I have not expressed...the decison-making on what drivers want should be entirely from the drivers... of course we would engage "outsiders" when the need is clearly defined by the "insiders". I want to discuss more with you about the incongruity of joining suburban, city, and limo drivers underneath one aegis.
-MIKE FOULKS
DN:Let me hear from you.
Don Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
CORRECTION: (MF:Rees is a very motivated, not DN:)
MF:I'll communicate with John Rees.
DN:I'm somewhat acquainted with Rees, although it's indirect. The Party Cab, #3877, is owned by Luxor, Inc. I represent Steve Lauria, the owns of the company behind that medallion. I need to make that disclosure to both you and Rees. My professional tie to Lauria is in respect to the collection of property damage, and I have worked for his various corporations for about 15 years. I see no conflict of interest between Rees and any of Lauria's corporations or with Lauria.
MF:I think we would like to meet you before Saturday (in the afternoon- how about Wednesday, maybe at 7PM?) because the conversation might be a bit lenghtier and more productive than you might think.
MF:7:00 P.M. may be the afternoon for you, but not for me. I expect to be having dinner with one of my daughters at about that time. If you would like to get together at about 3:00 P.M. or at 11:00 A.M., I can budget a sufficient amount of time to give to you both.
DN:Rees is a very motivated individual beyond the personal issues with the "Party Cab" and we are not joined at the hip in our opinions, but we've found mutual respect for discussing our differences and have influenced each other's changing attitudes towards the entirety of this organizing effort. I want to make clear my "insider/outsider" postion clear...it has caused people to put words in my mouth or attribute opinions to me which I have not expressed...the decison-making on what drivers want should be entirely from the drivers... of course we would engage "outsiders" when the need is clearly defined by the "insiders". I want to discuss more with you about the incongruity of joining suburban, city, and limo drivers underneath one aegis.
-MIKE FOULKS
DN:Let me hear from you.
Don Nathan
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
MF:I'll communicate with John Rees.
DN:I'm somewhat acquainted with Rees, although it's indirect. The Party Cab, #3877, is owned by Luxor, Inc. I represent Steve Lauria, the owns of the company behind that medallion. I need to make that disclosure to both you and Rees. My professional tie to Lauria is in respect to the collection of property damage, and I have worked for his various corporations for about 15 years. I see no conflict of interest between Rees and any of Lauria's corporations or with Lauria.
MF:I think we would like to meet you before Saturday (in the afternoon- how about Wednesday, maybe at 7PM?) because the conversation might be a bit lenghtier and more productive than you might think.
DN:7:00 P.M. may be the afternoon for you, but not for me. I expect to be having dinner with one of my daughters at about that time. If you would like to get together at about 3:00 P.M. or at 11:00 A.M., I can budget a sufficient amount of time to give to you both.
DN:Rees is a very motivated individual beyond the personal issues with the "Party Cab" and we are not joined at the hip in our opinions, but we've found mutual respect for discussing our differences and have influenced each other's changing attitudes towards the entirety of this organizing effort. I want to make clear my "insider/outsider" postion clear...it has caused people to put words in my mouth or attribute opinions to me which I have not expressed...the decison-making on what drivers want should be entirely from the drivers... of course we would engage "outsiders" when the need is clearly defined by the "insiders". I want to discuss more with you about the incongruity of joining suburban, city, and limo drivers underneath one aegis.
-MIKE FOULKS
DN:Let me hear from you.
Don Nathan
Mr. Nathan,
You didn't see any conlict of interest between John Rees who you imagined giving legal advice to about organizing a cabdriver "Union" while you were representing Steve Lauria, the owner of the medallion and cab he was driving?
How convenient for you.
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
CORRECTION
MF:Rees is a very motivated, not DN
MF:I'll communicate with John Rees.
DN:I'm somewhat acquainted with Rees, although it's indirect. The Party Cab, #3877, is owned by Luxor, Inc. I represent Steve Lauria, the owns of the company behind that medallion. I need to make that disclosure to both you and Rees. My professional tie to Lauria is in respect to the collection of property damage, and I have worked for his various corporations for about 15 years. I see no conflict of interest between Rees and any of Lauria's corporations or with Lauria.
MF:I think we would like to meet you before Saturday (in the afternoon- how about Wednesday, maybe at 7PM?) because the conversation might be a bit lenghtier and more productive than you might think.
MF:7:00 P.M. may be the afternoon for you, but not for me. I expect to be having dinner with one of my daughters at about that time. If you would like to get together at about 3:00 P.M. or at 11:00 A.M., I can budget a sufficient amount of time to give to you both.
DN:Rees is a very motivated individual beyond the personal issues with the "Party Cab" and we are not joined at the hip in our opinions, but we've found mutual respect for discussing our differences and have influenced each other's changing attitudes towards the entirety of this organizing effort. I want to make clear my "insider/outsider" postion clear...it has caused people to put words in my mouth or attribute opinions to me which I have not expressed...the decison-making on what drivers want should be entirely from the drivers... of course we would engage "outsiders" when the need is clearly defined by the "insiders". I want to discuss more with you about the incongruity of joining suburban, city, and limo drivers underneath one aegis.
-MIKE FOULKS
DN:Let me hear from you.
Don Nathan
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
MF:I'll communicate with John Rees.
DN:I'm somewhat acquainted with Rees, although it's indirect. The Party Cab, #3877, is owned by Luxor, Inc. I represent Steve Lauria, the owns of the company behind that medallion. I need to make that disclosure to both you and Rees. My professional tie to Lauria is in respect to the collection of property damage, and I have worked for his various corporations for about 15 years. I see no conflict of interest between Rees and any of Lauria's corporations or with Lauria.
MF:I think we would like to meet you before Saturday (in the afternoon- how about Wednesday, maybe at 7PM?) because the conversation might be a bit lenghtier and more productive than you might think.
DN:7:00 P.M. may be the afternoon for you, but not for me. I expect to be having dinner with one of my daughters at about that time. If you would like to get together at about 3:00 P.M. or at 11:00 A.M., I can budget a sufficient amount of time to give to you both.
DN:Rees is a very motivated individual beyond the personal issues with the "Party Cab" and we are not joined at the hip in our opinions, but we've found mutual respect for discussing our differences and have influenced each other's changing attitudes towards the entirety of this organizing effort. I want to make clear my "insider/outsider" postion clear...it has caused people to put words in my mouth or attribute opinions to me which I have not expressed...the decison-making on what drivers want should be entirely from the drivers... of course we would engage "outsiders" when the need is clearly defined by the "insiders". I want to discuss more with you about the incongruity of joining suburban, city, and limo drivers underneath one aegis.
-MIKE FOULKS
DN:Let me hear from you.
Don Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
MF:Any chance we could meet Monday 11/12 night or Tuesday 11/13 night? I'd like to introduce you to John Rees "Party Cabbie", who the City took unusual steps with to have him remove the decorations from the inside and outside of his cab.
DN:I wish we could meet, but I already have appointments booked for both evenings with clients in pending cases. I could meet with the two of you on Wednesday or Friday afternoon at your convenience as long as it's out in Elmhurst and anytime after 1:00 P.M. But it might be easiest for the two of you to get together next Saturday at the meeting Yi Tang and I are going to host somewhere downtown in the afternoon. I'd be happy to show up a little early for it to meet privately with the two of you if you like.
My understanding is that Rees has not been cited at all by DCS for anything to do with "The Party Cab". The Commissioner isn't stupid. The bigger question for Rees is whether he wants to take steps to deck his cab out again as it was with the blessing of law. If so, then consideration has to be paid as to do that most efficiently. If Rees would like to do that through court action, I am more than willing to donate time to accomplish that goal - the only cost to him would be the court filing fees. It's idiotic not to allow the man to drive a decorated cab as long as it presents no threat to safety - and it obviously doesn't.
If on the other hand, you and John Rees are planning on seeking legal advice as to how to go forward with an organization that excludes a significant number of local cab drivers, I think it inappropriate to meet separately. I fully expect the meeting of 11/17 to be attended by both "Insiders" and "Outsiders". As "Insiders" your participation would be invaluable. My time is made available both to "Insiders" and "Outsiders" where the issues concern all drivers in the Metro area: the need for fair meter rates in the City; the need for regulated rates that are not undercut in certain of the suburbs; group health insurance; hospital savings accounts; group disability coverage; pension programs; and whatever else would benefit ALL drivers and bring down group rates.
An organization that administers such programs can be of great use. With premiums that generate commissions, the organization can be self-sustaining without ripping off the drivers. Some people call this kind of organization a "Union".
You two may not be interested in such things - you may see this kind of organization as some sort of a rip-off that's no better than what now you have. But what do you have now? Do you have health insurance? Where do you go for medical care if you fall sick - suffer a heart attack or a stroke or, worse yet, have a cancer that befalls you at age 35 or 40. My first wife died of cancer at age 42. You don't know when that kind of disaster can hit. Want to go to Stroger Hospital or Oak Forest for your care?
These issues propel my interest along with winning people like John Rees the right to deck out his cab the way he likes. I do hope to meet with you whether with Rees or without.
Donald Nathan
Mr. Nathan,
Why did you "think it inappropriate to meet separately...if...(John Rees and I were) planning on seeking legal advice as how to go forward with an organization"?
What "significant number of local cabdrivers" did you perceive we intended to "exclude"?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/12/07:
MF:Any chance we could meet Monday 11/12 night or Tuesday 11/13 night? I'd like to introduce you to John Rees "Party Cabbie", who the City took unusual steps with to have him remove the decorations from the inside and outside of his cab.
DN:I wish we could meet, but I already have appointments booked for both evenings with clients in pending cases. I could meet with the two of you on Wednesday or Friday afternoon at your convenience as long as it's out in Elmhurst and anytime after 1:00 P.M. But it might be easiest for the two of you to get together next Saturday at the meeting Yi Tang and I are going to host somewhere downtown in the afternoon. I'd be happy to show up a little early for it to meet privately with the two of you if you like.
My understanding is that Rees has not been cited at all by DCS for anything to do with "The Party Cab". The Commissioner isn't stupid. The bigger question for Rees is whether he wants to take steps to deck his cab out again as it was with the blessing of law. If so, then consideration has to be paid as to do that most efficiently. If Rees would like to do that through court action, I am more than willing to donate time to accomplish that goal - the only cost to him would be the court filing fees. It's idiotic not to allow the man to drive a decorated cab as long as it presents no threat to safety - and it obviously doesn't.
If on the other hand, you and John Rees are planning on seeking legal advice as to how to go forward with an organization that excludes a significant number of local cab drivers, I think it inappropriate to meet separately. I fully expect the meeting of 11/17 to be attended by both "Insiders" and "Outsiders". As "Insiders" your participation would be invaluable. My time is made available both to "Insiders" and "Outsiders" where the issues concern all drivers in the Metro area: the need for fair meter rates in the City; the need for regulated rates that are not undercut in certain of the suburbs; group health insurance; hospital savings accounts; group disability coverage; pension programs; and whatever else would benefit ALL drivers and bring down group rates.
An organization that administers such programs can be of great use. With premiums that generate commissions, the organization can be self-sustaining without ripping off the drivers. Some people call this kind of organization a "Union".
You two may not be interested in such things - you may see this kind of organization as some sort of a rip-off that's no better than what now you have. But what do you have now? Do you have health insurance? Where do you go for medical care if you fall sick - suffer a heart attack or a stroke or, worse yet, have a cancer that befalls you at age 35 or 40. My first wife died of cancer at age 42. You don't know when that kind of disaster can hit. Want to go to Stroger Hospital or Oak Forest for your care?
These issues propel my interest along with winning people like John Rees the right to deck out his cab the way he likes. I do hope to meet with you whether with Rees or without.
Donald Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/06/07:
MF:I think that we could meet later in the evening one of these weekends at that Borders bookstore in Oak Brook just north of the mall just east of Rt. 83.
DN:Sure is convenient for me. It's about a mile from my apartment building. I can accommodate a group of about a dozen max in the lounge area of my building. I have access to a comfortable conference room that can accommodate about half a dozen to eight as well. I do have to make advance arrangements, but it's not difficult to do so. Coffee and tea is free here.
You want to meet at Borders? That's fine with me. Most people are willing to come out to Oak Brook or Elmhurst because they're centrally located and about 10 miles west of the city limits.
MF:Sorry I missed you in Skokie
DN:You sensitized me. I felt that as a non-cabdriver, and a non-resident of Skokie, I had no standing to speak and I thought under the circumstances I ought not to attend as an "outsider". As I understand it from Yi Tang, the meeting was well attended by those who do have a stake in the matter, and evidently it went well. There were plenty of articulate people there; my presence would not have contributed much, if anything.
The issue is an easy one to hit out of the park. Any ordinance like the one in question would be easy to challenge in court.
Don (Nathan)
Mr. Nathan,
Are you suggesting that the reason you didn't attend the hearing in Skokie was because I "sensitized" you?
Also, are you suggesting that the "victory" claimed by Prateek Sampat wasn't as powerful as he and the AFSC Two Project claimed responsibility for, but rather more about how "easy to hit out of the park...Any ordinance like the one in question would be easy to challenge in court."?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/06/07:
MF:I think that we could meet later in the evening one of these weekends at that Borders bookstore in Oak Brook just north of the mall just east of Rt. 83.
DN:Sure is convenient for me. It's about a mile from my apartment building. I can accommodate a group of about a dozen max in the lounge area of my building. I have access to a comfortable conference room that can accommodate about half a dozen to eight as well. I do have to make advance arrangements, but it's not difficult to do so. Coffee and tea is free here.
You want to meet at Borders? That's fine with me. Most people are willing to come out to Oak Brook or Elmhurst because they're centrally located and about 10 miles west of the city limits.
MF:Sorry I missed you in Skokie
DN:You sensitized me. I felt that as a non-cabdriver, and a non-resident of Skokie, I had no standing to speak and I thought under the circumstances I ought not to attend as an "outsider". As I understand it from Yi Tang, the meeting was well attended by those who do have a stake in the matter, and evidently it went well. There were plenty of articulate people there; my presence would not have contributed much, if anything.
The issue is an easy one to hit out of the park. Any ordinance like the one in question would be easy to challenge in court.
Don (Nathan)
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/04/07:
MF:Please let me continue to call you Mr. Nathan, but I wil stop if you insist...
DN:As I said before: I don't give a rat's patootie what you decide to call me. If it makes you more comfortable to be formal, do as you will, Mr. Foulks.
MF:I hope your Halloween was fun.
DN:It was. My boy was a black cat - we have a whole bunch of them in the house, so it was fitting. I was dressed as a cross between Alice Cooper (or a portly Howard Stern) and Groucho Marx. We had over 120 kids come to our door. My wife was dressed as a witch - as usual - with a ground fogger and cauldron full of candy in hand. We kind of go all out for "Le Jour des Mortes".
MF:It struck me that while the cabdrivers need a fare increase, the Republicans could use a FEAR increase, especially if Rudy is their guy.
DN:In a separate e-mail, I'm going to send you an op-ed run in the New York Times by Paul Krugman about that sonofabitch, Giuliani.
MF:I'm going to try to make it to the Skokie Village Hall for the discussion of the taxicab-parking ban up there. I've let Yi know that I'll likely be there.
DN:Date for this? I don't live in Skokie. I'm not even Asian or Jewish, but it rankles me that a guy who owns a car with a top light might not even park in his driveway, much less in the street at the curb while he sleeps a couple of hours. I would never offer my two cents directly, but I'd sure be happy to give off the cuff advice at a hearing if my schedule permits it. I'll be in town till the 21st.
MF:I would, of course, like to meet you there, but my focus would be more on the meeting than any business we would discuss.
DN:That would be no place to discuss any business other than the subject matter of the meeting.
MF:It would be better for me to plan to meet you at a more convenient place for you at a time when the need to get back in my cab and make some money would not be as pressing (such as one afternoon in the next few weeks.) I am planning to attend the November 17th meeting one way or the other, so I wouldn't stress about whether we actually meet before then or not. There is a long road ahead of all of us.
DN:That's the most sensible time to meet and discuss things at some leisure.
Don Nathan
Mr. Nathan,
What does that issue of parking cabs in Skokie have to do with being "Asian or Jewish" as you bring up?
By the way, you say here you're not "Asian or Jewish", but didn't you also say somewhere else you're 3/8 Jewish?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 11/04/07:
MF
lease let me continue to call you Mr. Nathan, but I wil stop if you insist...
DN:As I said before: I don't give a rat's patootie what you decide to call me. If it makes you more comfortable to be formal, do as you will, Mr. Foulks.
MF:I hope your Halloween was fun.
DN:It was. My boy was a black cat - we have a whole bunch of them in the house, so it was fitting. I was dressed as a cross between Alice Cooper (or a portly Howard Stern) and Groucho Marx. We had over 120 kids come to our door. My wife was dressed as a witch - as usual - with a ground fogger and cauldron full of candy in hand. We kind of go all out for "Le Jour des Mortes".
MF:It struck me that while the cabdrivers need a fare increase, the Republicans could use a FEAR increase, especially if Rudy is their guy.
DN:In a separate e-mail, I'm going to send you an op-ed run in the New York Times by Paul Krugman about that sonofabitch, Giuliani.
MF:I'm going to try to make it to the Skokie Village Hall for the discussion of the taxicab-parking ban up there. I've let Yi know that I'll likely be there.
DN ate for this? I don't live in Skokie. I'm not even Asian or Jewish, but it rankles me that a guy who owns a car with a top light might not even park in his driveway, much less in the street at the curb while he sleeps a couple of hours. I would never offer my two cents directly, but I'd sure be happy to give off the cuff advice at a hearing if my schedule permits it. I'll be in town till the 21st.
MF:I would, of course, like to meet you there, but my focus would be more on the meeting than any business we would discuss.
DN:That would be no place to discuss any business other than the subject matter of the meeting.
MF:It would be better for me to plan to meet you at a more convenient place for you at a time when the need to get back in my cab and make some money would not be as pressing (such as one afternoon in the next few weeks.) I am planning to attend the November 17th meeting one way or the other, so I wouldn't stress about whether we actually meet before then or not. There is a long road ahead of all of us.
DN:That's the most sensible time to meet and discuss things at some leisure.
Don Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/26/07:
MF:Okay, Don,
Since we have now firmly established the price, I'll sincerely try to respect the offer.
DN:Good.
MF:Can you give me any free legal advice regarding the advantages or, more importantly, the disadvantages of maintaining an organizing group as a 'voluntary, non-profit, unincorporated association' as opposed to a registered non-profit association? Keep in mind that the collection of money would not be an authorized group activity.
DN:Yes. My preference would be to do that in person, however. There are details I would want to get that might affect my opinion, and I find doing that on a piece by piece basis by way of e-mail to be grossly inefficient. i am leaving for San Jose on a flight tonight at 7:30 and won't be back until late on November 1 - my son, age 7, and I are going to "Trick or Treat" on Halloween which is of key import to me - have any kids? I've had five, and they remain the focus of my life. I'd suggest we get together on my return from California, and I'll be around from the 2nd to the 21st working 7 days a week.
MF:Separately, could you provide any basic, written structure to guide a chairperson and a committee conducting a meeting which would include discussion and voting? Both of these would be very helpful to me.
DN:I suppose I could - but "Roberts Rules of Order" is really an excellent resource, and I might design such a basic, written structure with the principles of this seminal work in front of me. Use of that guide doesn't have to be misused - abused.
MF:P.S. I've previously queried Tang about a meeting and I might want to do so before Nov. 17 if it becomes mutually convenient. I am too busy right now to even speculate as to when.
DN:Your schedule isn't the only one to consider. I do still have 70 cases pending all over Northern Illinois: Cook, Du Page, Lake, McHenry, Kane, Winnebago, Carroll, Whiteside, Henry and Rock Island counties and the U.S.D.C.N.D.Ill, both eastern and western divisions along with several matters in Fulton County, Georgia where I am also licensed to practice law.
MF:Perhaps you and he could suggest the where.
DN:On a weekend day, you might drive 16 miles directly west of the Loop to meet at my office. I use the business center in my building: 1 Elm Creek Drive, Elmhurst. The parking is free, and it's easily accessible to all expressways. You can bring anyone you like. Weekends work just fine, and weeknights are just as good, especially so Tuesdays and Thursdays.
MF:P.P.S. At the risk of sounding full of myself, I wouldn't need to look in a phone book to find your number. Let me balance that with 'permission' to call me Mike. My desire for formality is based on clarity; George WHO? (Mr. Kasp, Mr. Lutfallah.) WHICH Mike? (How many more percentage points do you think I could rely on when I found out I was the only 'MIKE' running in Melissa's election?) It also clarifies 'my guys' from everybody else.
DN:I have several clients with your first name. Not a one of them is as facile on paper. I would recognize you in all likelihood just by the way you craft a sentence. Very likely, you would have no problem figuring out that it was "The Donald" who sent you a missive as opposed to, say, Donald Duck. I always say that children should be obscene and not absurd, and most of the people around me who consider my opinions worth hearing appreciate it.
Don Nathan
Mr. Nathan,
If all of your clients are so well-recognizable to you with just their first names as you claim here, why did you fail to understand that I was talking about Steve Lauria, one of your clients, a short time later when you revealed as much about the American United affiliated owner in an e-mail, when I referred to him as "Steve" soon afterwards?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/26/07:
MF
kay, Don,
Since we have now firmly established the price, I'll sincerely try to respect the offer.
DN:Good.
MF:Can you give me any free legal advice regarding the advantages or, more importantly, the disadvantages of maintaining an organizing group as a 'voluntary, non-profit, unincorporated association' as opposed to a registered non-profit association? Keep in mind that the collection of money would not be an authorized group activity.
DN:Yes. My preference would be to do that in person, however. There are details I would want to get that might affect my opinion, and I find doing that on a piece by piece basis by way of e-mail to be grossly inefficient. i am leaving for San Jose on a flight tonight at 7:30 and won't be back until late on November 1 - my son, age 7, and I are going to "Trick or Treat" on Halloween which is of key import to me - have any kids? I've had five, and they remain the focus of my life. I'd suggest we get together on my return from California, and I'll be around from the 2nd to the 21st working 7 days a week.
MF:Separately, could you provide any basic, written structure to guide a chairperson and a committee conducting a meeting which would include discussion and voting? Both of these would be very helpful to me.
DN:I suppose I could - but "Roberts Rules of Order" is really an excellent resource, and I might design such a basic, written structure with the principles of this seminal work in front of me. Use of that guide doesn't have to be misused - abused.
MF .S. I've previously queried Tang about a meeting and I might want to do so before Nov. 17 if it becomes mutually convenient. I am too busy right now to even speculate as to when.
DN:Your schedule isn't the only one to consider. I do still have 70 cases pending all over Northern Illinois: Cook, Du Page, Lake, McHenry, Kane, Winnebago, Carroll, Whiteside, Henry and Rock Island counties and the U.S.D.C.N.D.Ill, both eastern and western divisions along with several matters in Fulton County, Georgia where I am also licensed to practice law.
MF erhaps you and he could suggest the where.
DN n a weekend day, you might drive 16 miles directly west of the Loop to meet at my office. I use the business center in my building: 1 Elm Creek Drive, Elmhurst. The parking is free, and it's easily accessible to all expressways. You can bring anyone you like. Weekends work just fine, and weeknights are just as good, especially so Tuesdays and Thursdays.
MF .P.S. At the risk of sounding full of myself, I wouldn't need to look in a phone book to find your number. Let me balance that with 'permission' to call me Mike. My desire for formality is based on clarity; George WHO? (Mr. Kasp, Mr. Lutfallah.) WHICH Mike? (How many more percentage points do you think I could rely on when I found out I was the only 'MIKE' running in Melissa's election?) It also clarifies 'my guys' from everybody else.
DN:I have several clients with your first name. Not a one of them is as facile on paper. I would recognize you in all likelihood just by the way you craft a sentence. Very likely, you would have no problem figuring out that it was "The Donald" who sent you a missive as opposed to, say, Donald Duck. I always say that children should be obscene and not absurd, and most of the people around me who consider my opinions worth hearing appreciate it.
Don Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 10/26/07:
MF:Mr. Nathan, (please forgive me if I use that now, or from time to time, as I believe that sometimes familiarity breeds contempt and formality fosters respect.),
DN:I don't really give a rat's patootie if you hold me in contempt, and I have even less concern for whether you choose to respect me. I don't NEED you. You might be of use in achieving goals that include providing financial relief for drivers of public passenger vehicles in Chicago, establishing some sort of group health insurance plan for them, setting up a pension plan that they can fall back on if old or permanently disabled, for their safety on the streets, that they not be exploited the further with needless regulation, etc.
I have no gain to realize from this effort - no stake in it. You won't even find a correct number for me in the phone book: the one listed connects to my fax machine. My practice is limited only to what I choose to handle, and most of that is for lawyers from all over the Midwest on referral.
You might want to work with me. You might not. I am not looking to lead you. And I am not seeking a leader to follow. I have my uses - a good lawyer does have his uses when there's trouble or when solutions have to be hatched. A good lawyer knows how to preserve secrets and confidences - that's what attorney client privilege is all about. And a good lawyer donates some of his time for the benefit of the public.
The A.R.D.C. requires we lawyers declare how much time we devote to pro bono work every year when we renew our licenses.
I prefer to give time to causes I support than to donate money. My kids are still sucking at my pockets. But I do have time. You want it? Justify it, and you'll get some of it. Don't, and I just give it to someone else who convinces me its worth giving it to him or her.
You claim to have goals. Some of them I have noted. On balance, I know little of what you are trying to accomplish. If you choose to enter into some sort of dialogue about those goals, you can rest assured your confidences are going to be preserved to my grave. If you choose not to do so, that's kewl to me too. I can be a source of intelligence if you like, and you can pass on it if you choose. That's what Art Dickholtz and Big Tony Bottalla used me for in different contexts.
Like I said - lawyers have their uses, especially so the ones who know what it is to drive a cab. Keep it in mind that I logged 200,000 miles of client counseling before taking an oath as an attorney and counselor at law.
Is that clear enough to you, Mr. Foulks?
MF:The reason I was so persistent in getting a straight answer from you is that I really couldn't conclude one way or the other and because I have use the words 'pipe dreams' to describe some aspects of people's hopes for the result of organizing. I used this phrase not so much to completely dissuade them from working towards any of those goals, but more so to redirect their energies to laying a foundation instead imagining the view from the upper floors.
DN:I wasn't using the phrase as a shibboleth. My policy is to say exactly what I mean to say. English has it's limitations because of the ambiguities of its phrasings. But I couldn't opt to express it in French which is much more precise (the language of diplomacy for that reason) because too few people are fluent in it.
MF:Please try to limit your use of 'FOLKS' to prevent anyone else from any unnecessary confusion.
DN:I'll be especially sensitive to it under the circumstances.
MF:I'm glad the tone of everybody's correspondence has changed.
DN:In what sense? We all have common goals. Perhaps you're the one coming to understand that.
MF:I will always read what people send me unless it tends to be tedious garbage, but I won't always be able to reply immediately or even at all at times. Be sure that I am reading what you send very carefully at the moment.
DN:That's encouraging. But don't be solipsistic about it, Mr. Foulks. I'm not crafting my thoughts with just you in mind. You are obviously a bright man, and I intend to reach you too, but I'm writing for the benefit of ALL of the public that drives for a living in Chicago and the greater Metro area.
MF:Let me clarify my 'insider/outsider' position: it's not that I don't believe that all outsiders are bad or even unnecessary, it's just that I can more quickly judge an insiders worth or more easily investigate an insider.
DN:I think that's plain old unadulterated bull****. Arthur Dickholtz stopped driving a cab in 1947. By the time he died in 1995, he owned a lot of them (I cannot tell you specifics because of attorney-client privilege that didn't die with AD as far as I'm concerned). Dickholtz was NOT an "outsider", and you wouldn't have had any problem judging him - nor would he you because he had the mind of a wolf.
MF:As much as I am a purist in believing that what you can build 'without' makes you leaner, meaner, and that much stronger, I am also a pragmatist who will ally with anybody in the most Machiavellian manner to accomplish the goals of my group. If Prateek has something of immeasurable value (like a stack of signatures) I will engage Prateek, whether he wants to or not, and whether he's aware of the double agency of the contact or not. Prateek should know now, as Indiana Jones was told, "There is nothing is this world which you can possess, which I cannot also take away."
DN:You are wise to operate this way. But you need not to be inbred - That policy leads to genetic malformations. It's like royalty that suffered from hemophilia.
MF:The only care I have for being portrayed as a beggar or a thief is how it suits my aims. Sometimes that suit is armor; and sometimes it is camoflauge. And sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
DN:Point made. That's why I respect you, Mr. Foulks. Maybe someday you'll choose to call me Don, and I'll be allowed to call you Mike. You should come for a cup of coffee when next Yi Tang and I host a meeting on November 17. Maybe we'll accomplish nothing, but more likely than not we can measure one another more accurately face to face.
Mr. Nathan,
About the ARDC, could you explain more about how and why they require you declare how much time you devote to pro bono work every year when you renew your license?
When was your law license renewed last? When will it be required to be renewed next? What is the number associated with your law license?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 10/26/07:
MF:Mr. Nathan, (please forgive me if I use that now, or from time to time, as I believe that sometimes familiarity breeds contempt and formality fosters respect.),
DN:I don't really give a rat's patootie if you hold me in contempt, and I have even less concern for whether you choose to respect me. I don't NEED you. You might be of use in achieving goals that include providing financial relief for drivers of public passenger vehicles in Chicago, establishing some sort of group health insurance plan for them, setting up a pension plan that they can fall back on if old or permanently disabled, for their safety on the streets, that they not be exploited the further with needless regulation, etc.
I have no gain to realize from this effort - no stake in it. You won't even find a correct number for me in the phone book: the one listed connects to my fax machine. My practice is limited only to what I choose to handle, and most of that is for lawyers from all over the Midwest on referral.
You might want to work with me. You might not. I am not looking to lead you. And I am not seeking a leader to follow. I have my uses - a good lawyer does have his uses when there's trouble or when solutions have to be hatched. A good lawyer knows how to preserve secrets and confidences - that's what attorney client privilege is all about. And a good lawyer donates some of his time for the benefit of the public.
The A.R.D.C. requires we lawyers declare how much time we devote to pro bono work every year when we renew our licenses.
I prefer to give time to causes I support than to donate money. My kids are still sucking at my pockets. But I do have time. You want it? Justify it, and you'll get some of it. Don't, and I just give it to someone else who convinces me its worth giving it to him or her.
You claim to have goals. Some of them I have noted. On balance, I know little of what you are trying to accomplish. If you choose to enter into some sort of dialogue about those goals, you can rest assured your confidences are going to be preserved to my grave. If you choose not to do so, that's kewl to me too. I can be a source of intelligence if you like, and you can pass on it if you choose. That's what Art Dickholtz and Big Tony Bottalla used me for in different contexts.
Like I said - lawyers have their uses, especially so the ones who know what it is to drive a cab. Keep it in mind that I logged 200,000 miles of client counseling before taking an oath as an attorney and counselor at law.
Is that clear enough to you, Mr. Foulks?
MF:The reason I was so persistent in getting a straight answer from you is that I really couldn't conclude one way or the other and because I have use the words 'pipe dreams' to describe some aspects of people's hopes for the result of organizing. I used this phrase not so much to completely dissuade them from working towards any of those goals, but more so to redirect their energies to laying a foundation instead imagining the view from the upper floors.
DN:I wasn't using the phrase as a shibboleth. My policy is to say exactly what I mean to say. English has it's limitations because of the ambiguities of its phrasings. But I couldn't opt to express it in French which is much more precise (the language of diplomacy for that reason) because too few people are fluent in it.
MF lease try to limit your use of 'FOLKS' to prevent anyone else from any unnecessary confusion.
DN:I'll be especially sensitive to it under the circumstances.
MF:I'm glad the tone of everybody's correspondence has changed.
DN:In what sense? We all have common goals. Perhaps you're the one coming to understand that.
MF:I will always read what people send me unless it tends to be tedious garbage, but I won't always be able to reply immediately or even at all at times. Be sure that I am reading what you send very carefully at the moment.
DN:That's encouraging. But don't be solipsistic about it, Mr. Foulks. I'm not crafting my thoughts with just you in mind. You are obviously a bright man, and I intend to reach you too, but I'm writing for the benefit of ALL of the public that drives for a living in Chicago and the greater Metro area.
MF:Let me clarify my 'insider/outsider' position: it's not that I don't believe that all outsiders are bad or even unnecessary, it's just that I can more quickly judge an insiders worth or more easily investigate an insider.
DN:I think that's plain old unadulterated bull****. Arthur Dickholtz stopped driving a cab in 1947. By the time he died in 1995, he owned a lot of them (I cannot tell you specifics because of attorney-client privilege that didn't die with AD as far as I'm concerned). Dickholtz was NOT an "outsider", and you wouldn't have had any problem judging him - nor would he you because he had the mind of a wolf.
MF:As much as I am a purist in believing that what you can build 'without' makes you leaner, meaner, and that much stronger, I am also a pragmatist who will ally with anybody in the most Machiavellian manner to accomplish the goals of my group. If Prateek has something of immeasurable value (like a stack of signatures) I will engage Prateek, whether he wants to or not, and whether he's aware of the double agency of the contact or not. Prateek should know now, as Indiana Jones was told, "There is nothing is this world which you can possess, which I cannot also take away."
DN:You are wise to operate this way. But you need not to be inbred - That policy leads to genetic malformations. It's like royalty that suffered from hemophilia.
MF:The only care I have for being portrayed as a beggar or a thief is how it suits my aims. Sometimes that suit is armor; and sometimes it is camoflauge. And sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
DN oint made. That's why I respect you, Mr. Foulks. Maybe someday you'll choose to call me Don, and I'll be allowed to call you Mike. You should come for a cup of coffee when next Yi Tang and I host a meeting on November 17. Maybe we'll accomplish nothing, but more likely than not we can measure one another more accurately face to face.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/24/07 III:
DN:I shouldn't be cute - I meant what I wrote. I guess that translates to "A", but I'm not sure what choice "B" would be. Does it really matter?
My point was to suggest that I recognize you to be a talented man - there are lots of them attending the University of Four Wheels - and that you ought not to be criticized for doing the best you could in an unfriendly forum.
Actually, as you characterize it, you did as well as you possibly could. It's just unfortunate any sparks flew back and forth with committee members. That said, I offer my respect for whatever little it's worth. I've been a communicator for a living for the entirety of my adult life, and I'm still learning.
Don Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/24/07 II:
MF:Yes, yes, yes.
Read my question again and answer either A or B, because you might be implying the opinion that either all of us (FOLKS) or just FOULKS believes that "THESE" are "PIPE DREAMS". This is not the first time that this synomatic problem has occurred in a serious discussion (and also at the ends of a Looney Tunes cartoons). Whether its A or B significantly reflects what I receive as to be your meaning. Please respond simply and ASAP. Thank you.
DN:I ain't dat bright. Take it as ya like. But rest assured, I mean you no harm, and I'm not looking to pick your pocket either. I don't need it.
Mr. Nathan,
Why did you again avoid answering a simple question?
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/24/07 II:
MF:Yes, yes, yes.
Read my question again and answer either A or B, because you might be implying the opinion that either all of us (FOLKS) or just FOULKS believes that "THESE" are "PIPE DREAMS". This is not the first time that this synomatic problem has occurred in a serious discussion (and also at the ends of a Looney Tunes cartoons). Whether its A or B significantly reflects what I receive as to be your meaning. Please respond simply and ASAP. Thank you.
DN:I ain't dat bright. Take it as ya like. But rest assured, I mean you no harm, and I'm not looking to pick your pocket either. I don't need it.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/24/07:
MF:A quick question- Did you mean to write "THESE AREN'T PIPE DREAMS FOLKS" as written or did you mean to write "THESE AREN"T PIPE DREAMS FOULKS". I hope you understand that my confusion about this and your answer is needed to determine a proper reply.
DN:You evidently give me little credit for my wit, Mr. Foulks. I tend to be rather folksy in my approach, and the Juries and judges have enjoyed it over the years. I was pretty good in my days as a driver too, if I may say it.
Just call me good ole' reliable Nathan, Nathan, Nathan ...
Our collective hopes aren't pipe dreams. They're attainable if we organize and work together to common goals. Quote me if you choose or ignore me if you reject my free help - no strings attached.
Mr. Nathan,
Why did you avoid answering a simple question?
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS, ALSO ON 10/24/07:
MF:A quick question- Did you mean to write "THESE AREN'T PIPE DREAMS FOLKS" as written or did you mean to write "THESE AREN"T PIPE DREAMS FOULKS". I hope you understand that my confusion about this and your answer is needed to determine a proper reply.
DN:You evidently give me little credit for my wit, Mr. Foulks. I tend to be rather folksy in my approach, and the Juries and judges have enjoyed it over the years. I was pretty good in my days as a driver too, if I may say it.
Just call me good ole' reliable Nathan, Nathan, Nathan ...
Our collective hopes aren't pipe dreams. They're attainable if we organize and work together to common goals. Quote me if you choose or ignore me if you reject my free help - no strings attached.
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN REPLYING TO MIKE FOULKS 10/24/07:
MF:Thank you, Mr. Nathan.
DN:You are welcome, Mr. Foulks.
MF:Yi is not completely wrong. I believe he read a Tribune short posted on the internet which contains the quote. (Another example of why not to believe everything you read.)
DN:"All the news that's fit to print"
MF:I told the Transporation Committe that if they felt that 25% was too high then they should compromise it with their wisdom. I said that whether they give us 25%, 20%, 15%, 10% or whatever amount they see fit, they cannot give us nothing.
DN:That's what I do with Juries. That's what I used to do with passengers in my taxi when the topic of tips came up. I was hoping for 25%, but I was always willing to take "20%, 15%, 10% or whatever amount" they saw fit. I always felt I ought not to be stiffed.
MF:I then looked Mr. Reilly in the eye and told him that if the Council decides to give us nothing, then the next strike, demonstration, rally or march would be extremely disruptive to the traffic flow of his ward, which he had expressed concerns about when defending the ridiculous ticketing of drivers who are doing their jobs up and down Michigan Avenue and the like.
DN:That tack was probably counterproductive, speaking as a lawyer who tries to persuade Juries to award money to clients who have been hurt.
MF:I started to continue by noting the media coverage judging the strike of July 31st as being ineffective because the Loop was unaffected and asserted my honest belief that the Loop will be targeted and affected next time, when Mr. Reyboras raise his voice and said, "Don't come here and threaten us ..." which is when I apologized for any exaggerated tone he might be misinterpreting.
DN:He was only expressing what the lot of them were probably thinking. Respectfully speaking, you stepped over the line, and that was an unfortunate choice.
MF:I then quickly broke down the rest of my testimony into the simple fact of the dramatic gas price increase necessitating a meter increase of some amount, and then basically agreed with all of George and George's proposal except for the one which asked that independent operators not be required to take credit cards by arguing that either all of us shall take them or none of us in consideration of not confusing the passengers.
DN:This might well not have been heard after threatening the Committee members.
MF:I elaborated on the fundamental problems of requiring credit card acceptance and indicated a need to improve the requirements on the cab companies to provide a quicker and more reliable system. I then redirected the Committee to carefully consider the personal testimony of Sayeed, who said that the longer and longer hours are destroying his family life.
DN:Good - important points. Who can drive 14 hours a day 7 days a week in a world with $3/gallon gas?
MF:I agree with your contention that sometimes courage is need to sit in public and speak, but let me assure you that I do not need to summon that kind of courage anymore as I have spoken to all kinds of people in all kinds of settings in my vocation as a cabdriver and elsewhere.
DN:So too have I - 200,000 miles of cab driving and now 32 years of the practice of law, all of it in court before Juries in over 15,000 personal injury and workers compensation cases most of it related to taxi drivers and the taxi industry.
MF:I wish that more of the cabdrivers who spend a lot of time speaking the truth with each other would come and participate in this part of the political process. I intend to make my wishes come true.
DN:Good for you. Good for drivers in general.
MF:I have read some of your messages to other drivers and I thank you for your input, but let me clarify my position of wanting a Cabdriver-Only Organization:
DN:My chauffeur's license number was 11473. I drove from 1968 to 1975, first for Yellow, then American United, then Flash. My first job in civil practice was as the associate for Sherman Dickholtz on the Flash Cab lot. I was one of eight lawyers who represented cab drivers as defendants for Delta Casualty (mostly Flash affiliates) from 1977 to 1995. I represented drivers from American United from offices at 2353 W. Belmont from 1996 to 1998. Over the years, I have represented 7,500 cab drivers as injured victims. I still represent them, but now I limit my practice to catastrophic injuries because I'm semi-retired.
MF:It is much more likely that an outsider has selfish interests incongruent with those of insiders.
DN:The insider-outsider business doesn't cut it if you give it some thought.
I don't need doodly squat any more. I've done pretty well. Half the time I am in my home in the hills east of Monterey, California. My wife says I have too much free time, and I'm trying to give some of it away. You don't want it? Why the hell not? You have nothing I want other than the rights you need and don't have. And I don't think you're any more an "insider" than anyone else.
When I was a kid growing up in New York, there used to be billboards up everywhere depicting a beautiful black guy with a big toothy white smile. He was holding up a huge corned beef sandwich in one hand. Below it read: "YOU DON'T NEED TO BE JEWISH TO ENJOY LEVY'S RYE BREAD".
Do I make my point, Mr. Foulks?
MF:I am not taking the time to judge you,
DN:I hope to gosh not. Then I'd think you just prejudiced. You haven't met me. You don't know jack squat about me other than for what you've read or heard said.
MF:but I have taken the time to judge the AFSC TWO Project and Prateek Sampat and have reached a conclusion that he is no good until proven otherwise.
DN:I'm not here to defend the kid. He's not very mature, however, and it shows in ways that really put a lot of people off. I'm three times his age, so he ****** me off too - maybe more so than you because I've invested my entire 40 year career into the cab industry.
MF:I will read anything you send me, but please do not be offended if my priorities delay an appropriate response.
DN:I expect absolutely nothing from you. If we interact, it's going to be toward the end of winning the things drivers need. Your priorities aren't any different from mine. I just have more time because I'm semi-retired.
MF:I am not in this for the money,
DN:I'm not either. I stand to gain nothing. I'm not looking for more business and need nothing at this point other than to enjoy things that are important to me in this life.
MF:so therefore my time is that much more valuable.
DN:No more valuable than mine is, young man.
MF:I would like to meet you in person some point in the future at our mutual convenience, but please do not seek me out; one of my weaknesses is my politeness. I know you are sophisticated enough to get what I'm trying to express.
DN:I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. I feel no compulsion to meet you in person, although it is likely to happen unless I get sick of trying to give away my time pro bono publico. I'm not the kind who sits in the shadows, but I have no particular reason to seek you out any more so than you do me. I do hope to have been polite in replying to your comments and not to have given offense.
I know you are sophisticated enough to get what I'm trying to express, Mr. Foulks.
Should we meet, however, I'd far prefer to be called by my first name: "Don". Nobody calls me "Slim" any more, but my first name is qutie polite enough. Mr. Nathan died 12 years ago.
Donald Nathan
THIS IS DONALD NATHAN TO YI TANG, ALSO 10/23/07:
Thank you for this link, Yi. Great story. I only wish we could clone a few of those brave men and women to organize here in Chicago. It makes me proud for those I've served over the years to know that spirit does live here, and the sight of those demonstrators should be played over and over for drivers here to see.
THIS YI TANG TO DONALD NATHAN AND A REPLY 10/23/07:
I feel sad about him today begging in the City Hall.
"Give us 5 percent, give us 10 percent. . . . Make a compromise and give us something," driver Mike Foulks said.
If I was wrong, please feel free to correct me.
Yi
You are wrong, Yi - whatever gets done, no one can be too proud to beg for relief even if you can characterize what he did as begging.
Although I wasn't there, it takes courage to sit before that committee and express oneself. Foulks is not to be criticized for whatever he said. Even a token rate increase would help a desperate situation.
Donald Nathan
MIKE FOULKS COMMENTS: Neither Yi Tang or Donald Nathan attended this important hearing for a fare increase at City Hall.
Yi Tang relied on an Internet report from the Chicago Tribune which characterized my comments as "begging".
Others in attendance more accurately characterized my comments as "threatening", for better or worse.
Yi Tang and Donald Nathan:
If both of you are so interested in helping cabdrivers, why did neither of you attend the important hearing for a fare increase or testify like so many others?
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
THIS YI TANG TO DONALD NATHAN AND A REPLY 10/23/07:
I feel sad about him today begging in the City Hall.
"Give us 5 percent, give us 10 percent. . . . Make a compromise and give us something," driver Mike Foulks said.
If I was wrong, please feel free to correct me.
Yi
You are wrong, Yi - whatever gets done, no one can be too proud to beg for relief even if you can characterize what he did as begging.
Although I wasn't there, it takes courage to sit before that committee and express oneself. Foulks is not to be criticized for whatever he said. Even a token rate increase would help a desperate situation.
Donald Nathan
MIKE FOULKS COMMENTS: Neither Yi Tang or Donald Nathan attended this important hearing for a fare increase at City Hall.
Yi Tang relied on an Internet report from the Chicago Tribune which characterized my comments as "begging".
Others in attendance more accurately characterized my comments as "threatening", for better or worse.
THIS IS FROM DONALD NATHAN TO YI TANG 10/23/07:
Mike Foulks is obviously a bright man, a good writer and he seems to want to know what's in it for you to be working toward organizing cab drivers. He wants to know where you've been, what you do now and why you're concerned about the industry. In short, he wants you to drop your trousers so you can be held up to public scrutiny.
Why on earth would you do that?
Foulks is just going to have to understand that there are some people out there who don't have any direct gain to realize by involving themselves in winning some results for drivers. There are some people who just want to give of themselves. It's something they just have to do.
Some such people don't want to get into the limelight. They get enough satisfaction from seeing results that follow from working together. Many people from countries where people don't routinely work together have a hard time understanding why other people from countries where millions act in consort get real pleasure when they see the job done. It's what built the "Great Wall" among other things. It's what brought the British to their knees in South Asia in the late '40's.
My recommendation is that you keep on keeping on - work as you do with others like you to build an organization that can win the things drivers in CHICAGO need: a significant meter increase, periodic review of meter rates to take into account rapid rises in gasoline rates, limitation of lease fees, medical insurance, a pension plan, and on and on and on.
THESE AREN'T PIPE DREAMS FOLKS.
Let Yi Tang and others like him do their thing.
Donald Nathan
former c/l $11473
THIS IS FROM DONALD NATHAN TO YI TANG 10/23/07:
Mike Foulks is obviously a bright man, a good writer and he seems to want to know what's in it for you to be working toward organizing cab drivers. He wants to know where you've been, what you do now and why you're concerned about the industry. In short, he wants you to drop your trousers so you can be held up to public scrutiny.
Why on earth would you do that?
_______________________________________________
Mr. Nathan, why on earth shouldn't Yi Tang tell us "where he's been, what he does now, and why he's so concerned about the industry"?
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
THIS IS FROM DONALD NATHAN TO YI TANG 10/23/07:
Mike Foulks is obviously a bright man, a good writer and he seems to want to know what's in it for you to be working toward organizing cab drivers. He wants to know where you've been, what you do now and why you're concerned about the industry. In short, he wants you to drop your trousers so you can be held up to public scrutiny.
Why on earth would you do that?
Foulks is just going to have to understand that there are some people out there who don't have any direct gain to realize by involving themselves in winning some results for drivers. There are some people who just want to give of themselves. It's something they just have to do.
Some such people don't want to get into the limelight. They get enough satisfaction from seeing results that follow from working together. Many people from countries where people don't routinely work together have a hard time understanding why other people from countries where millions act in consort get real pleasure when they see the job done. It's what built the "Great Wall" among other things. It's what brought the British to their knees in South Asia in the late '40's.
My recommendation is that you keep on keeping on - work as you do with others like you to build an organization that can win the things drivers in CHICAGO need: a significant meter increase, periodic review of meter rates to take into account rapid rises in gasoline rates, limitation of lease fees, medical insurance, a pension plan, and on and on and on.
THESE AREN'T PIPE DREAMS FOLKS.
Let Yi Tang and others like him do their thing.
Donald Nathan
former c/l $11473
THIS IS MIKE FOULKS TO YI TANG BEFORE 10/23/07
Re: This is the best I have read so far...
Something Money Can’t Buy ----- Dignity and Respectþ
“The people who do this job are desperate,” Professor Hodges said. When an incentive like yesterday’s special fares comes along, “you don’t have to be a Marxist to understand that that will breed strikebreakers.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/nyregion/23nyc.html?ref=nyregion
Yi Tang-
Thank you for your numerous postings containing links to sites with information about what is happening in NYC. While I will always contend that Chicago and New York are fundamentally different taxi business enviroments, we should pay attention to what is happening in NYC, but take enough care to contrast and compare that with what is happening here with these fundamental differences in mind. Simply said, "Chicago is not New York City. (Thank God.)".
I have noticed that both you and Wolfgang Weiss like to interlace your more pratical postings with philosophical quotes and metaphysical statements. Too many of these can lead a conversation astray into the ashtrays what divides us and away from the dinner plate of what we agree on. At least you have given us a lot to chew on instead of blowing smoke.
Could you please post a short bio of yourself so that we can better understnad where you are coming from? When I attended that ridiculous meeting with Prateek Sampat at UNITE-HERE, I think you said that you used to be a cabdriver, but that you are not one now. You gave me a ride over to Carriage Cab in an immaculate, white Town Car limo. Are you a cabdriver or a limo driver? What do you hope to accomplish and what is your interest with organizing cabdrivers?
Thanks again, Yi, for your contributions.
-Mike Foulks
Seriously, Mike, do you think anyone is going to bother slogging through that garbage? And even if they do, who cares about any of it?
Privilege was for you to waive, and you've done so. But there's nothing interesting enough to comment on really. It's just a consummate bore.
Will you answer the 3 questions I asked you a long time ago, Yi Tang?
Could you please post a short bio of yourself so that we can better understnad where you are coming from? When I attended that ridiculous meeting with Prateek Sampat at UNITE-HERE, I think you said that you used to be a cabdriver, but that you are not one now. You gave me a ride over to Carriage Cab in an immaculate, white Town Car limo. Are you a cabdriver or a limo driver? What do you hope to accomplish and what is your interest with organizing cabdrivers?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
THIS IS MIKE FOULKS TO YI TANG BEFORE 10/23/07
Re: This is the best I have read so far...
Something Money Can’t Buy ----- Dignity and Respectþ
“The people who do this job are desperate,” Professor Hodges said. When an incentive like yesterday’s special fares comes along, “you don’t have to be a Marxist to understand that that will breed strikebreakers.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/nyregion/23nyc.html?ref=nyregion
Yi Tang-
Thank you for your numerous postings containing links to sites with information about what is happening in NYC. While I will always contend that Chicago and New York are fundamentally different taxi business enviroments, we should pay attention to what is happening in NYC, but take enough care to contrast and compare that with what is happening here with these fundamental differences in mind. Simply said, "Chicago is not New York City. (Thank God.)".
I have noticed that both you and Wolfgang Weiss like to interlace your more pratical postings with philosophical quotes and metaphysical statements. Too many of these can lead a conversation astray into the ashtrays what divides us and away from the dinner plate of what we agree on. At least you have given us a lot to chew on instead of blowing smoke.
Could you please post a short bio of yourself so that we can better understnad where you are coming from? When I attended that ridiculous meeting with Prateek Sampat at UNITE-HERE, I think you said that you used to be a cabdriver, but that you are not one now. You gave me a ride over to Carriage Cab in an immaculate, white Town Car limo. Are you a cabdriver or a limo driver? What do you hope to accomplish and what is your interest with organizing cabdrivers?
Thanks again, Yi, for your contributions.
-Mike Foulks
Mr. Foulks:
Have you posted these E-Mails yet at the O’Hare? Why not so if they are important to all drivers to know?
I find that it is impossible to follow up your logic for keeping secrets from drivers. Is it the time for you to clean up CCO’s closet like a garage sale?
I would be more interested in about the performances of the previous elected vice president of CCO, like any reader of the Tribune. Has he resigned (or been fired) according to the Articles of Organization of CCO?
Anything else you have been hiding? The “truth” please, Mr. Foulks!
Mr. Tang
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Replying to:
Wolfgang J. Weiss,
Thanks for the "blast from the past"!
December 3, 2007? Let's set the way-back machine a little further...
A perfect segue into rarely-seen before e-from my "least-favorite lawyer", Donald S. Nathan.
Enjoy reading, everyone!
-Mike Foulks, President, Chicago Cabdriver Organization (CCO)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
The previous post is from Mr. Presiddont's favorite attorney.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Balst from the past:
Posted Dec 3, 07 - "The young man is running his head into a wall as far as I can tell - it's a bit like a bull in the ring after the Picadors have riled him up. The harm he does to his cause, and that of all people of good will, is unfortunate - hate is always recognized for what it is; most sensible people disrespect haters."
"My sincere hope is that he might wake up to what he is doing to shoot his organization in its collective foot. Before he hopelessly trashes his future credibility before the Transportation Committee, he should think before shooting off his mouth spewing venom that hurts no one."
"Judging from his continued rantings, these comments are likely to fall on deaf ears. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, and he won't carry this on the further; that he will recognize the need to battle with enemies rather than allies."
Mr. Tang,
I have not posted these e-mails anywhere but here. Your suggestion that they "are important to all drivers to know" is simply your characterization of them.
What "secrets" have I been "keeping from drivers"? Your logic is what I find impossible to follow at times like this.
"Is it time for you to clean up CCO's closet like a garage sale?" -Yi Tang.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this. Could you explain?
I don't think that most "readers of the Tribune" care about the "performance" of the previous APPOINTED Vice President of the CCO. He was elected to be a Cabdriver-Representative of the CCO, then appointed to Vice President by me.
I haven't ever received any "resignation" from him. He eventually failed to attend two regular CCO meetings in a row and was removed from his positions by me.
I haven't "hid" anything from anyone. You are the first to ask about this.
Yi Tang, you and others should know by now how adamant I am about truth-telling, from myself and others.
Any other questions you would like me to answer, Mr. Tang?
-Mike Foulks
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Mr. Foulks:
Have you posted these E-Mails yet at the O’Hare? Why not so if they are important to all drivers to know?
I find that it is impossible to follow up your logic for keeping secrets from drivers. Is it the time for you to clean up CCO’s closet like a garage sale?
I would be more interested in about the performances of the previous elected vice president of CCO, like any reader of the Tribune. Has he resigned (or been fired) according to the Articles of Organization of CCO?
Anything else you have been hiding? The “truth” please, Mr. Foulks!
Mr. Tang
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Wolfgang J. Weiss,
Thanks for the "blast from the past"!
December 3, 2007? Let's set the way-back machine a little further...
A perfect segue into rarely-seen before e-from my "least-favorite lawyer", Donald S. Nathan.
Enjoy reading, everyone!
-Mike Foulks, President, Chicago Cabdriver Organization (CCO)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
The previous post is from Mr. Presiddont's favorite attorney.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Replying to:
Balst from the past:
Posted Dec 3, 07 - "The young man is running his head into a wall as far as I can tell - it's a bit like a bull in the ring after the Picadors have riled him up. The harm he does to his cause, and that of all people of good will, is unfortunate - hate is always recognized for what it is; most sensible people disrespect haters."
"My sincere hope is that he might wake up to what he is doing to shoot his organization in its collective foot. Before he hopelessly trashes his future credibility before the Transportation Committee, he should think before shooting off his mouth spewing venom that hurts no one."
"Judging from his continued rantings, these comments are likely to fall on deaf ears. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, and he won't carry this on the further; that he will recognize the need to battle with enemies rather than allies."
Mr. Foulks:
You could well spend the time in promoting your vice president, so he may stay longer with you this time.
Has he ever had any comments or anything to say himself?
Mr. Tang
Mr. Tang,
I'm not here to "promote" any CCO Vice President. Their decision to participate in whatever fashion is their responsibility.
Mr. Syed Z. Ali made many comments which have been recorded at that several CCO meetings he attended.
I think he would have continued participating if some of the other well-known "Cabdriver-Representatives" bothered to show up as well.
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
Mr. Foulks:
You could well spend the time in promoting your vice president, so he may stay longer with you this time.
Has he ever had any comments or anything to say himself?
Mr. Tang
Wolf,
I didn't bribe anybody to vote for me, though a well-known "wino" indeed did vote for me in the first CCO election...he had a current chauffeur's license and a current lease.
Ask Steve Wiedersberg about it. He was supposed to cast one of his two votes for him.
Wolf, you are the Doctor Come Louder of "B.S." and an expert on posting with aliases. I defer you your authority, and your authority, and your authority, and your authority, and your authority, and your authority, etc.
Stay away from fires you can't put out until you bring using some "water", Wolf-flame.
-Mike Foulks, who has a belly-button and a human brain.
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Replying to:
There is nothing LESS DEMOCRATIC than Mikey, accept his appointing himself and staging a fake election with blank ballots and bribing people to vote.
Hey, did I get a vote? A gave a wino a big bottle Old Rebel Yell.
Of course everyone has the right to use a pen name or handle and there is no "secrecy" or hiding" or "hypocrisy" by not posting one's real name or title of any organization one may be involved with.
That's one of those "non-logical argument" ie., BS of the highest order.
There is no "obvious hypocrisy" other than Foulks trying to pretend he is a human being.
Trying to have a discussion here is like throwing gasoline on fire to try to put it out.
OK Mr, Foulks, you have proven beyond any doubt that you are a prime candidate for hospitalization in a locked ward -- for you own good!
These postings – obvious to even a non medical professional -- are the output of a person suffering from an OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDER.
This is very real debilitative and destructive illness, not just wise remarks or flagrantly abusive commentary.
These postings do not further the cause or provide insight to any of the issues at hand, other than the issue of “one of our own” in deep distress.
When you allow this kind of extremely excessive behavior, you no longer have a "DISCUSSION FORUM, but rather a VOMITORIUM.
We, on this forum sadly can not help this poor demented, tortured soul. I would hope that common sense and decency prevail – must prevail.
It is very saddening for me, personally to see this. I have seen mental illness of this type destroy a very close and true friend.
And I have seen proud and brave men – decorated soldiers who withstood and survived the worst horrors of war one can live through -- succumb to the devils and demons in their heads.
I am hereby abstaining from any further comments regarding Mr. Foulks and his alleged organization.
Mike, I am truly sorry. Please get help.
--Wolfgang J. Weiss—
Wolf,
If you truly believe that I am a "prime candidate for hospitalization in a locked ward", it is you whose mental state needs observing.
Shame on you for using the very real world of mentally ill people in a failed attempt to ridicule or belittle me, someone who simply disagrees with you on political issues or events.
"Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder"? Wolf, it seems that you can't help yourself when you schizophrenically post remarks under many different aliases.
Are you sure that you aren't the one who needs medical attention?
I know for a fact that you suffer from verbal diarrhea.
When you use "we", Wolf, who are you referring to? You and yourself?
Mental illness won't destroy me, Wolf, don't worry. Sorry to hear about your friend.
There are no "devils and demons" in my head, Wolf. Are there any in yours we should know about?
"I am hereby abstaining from any further comments regarding Mr. Foulks and his alleged organization." -Wolf Weiss
If I could only believe this to be true, Wolf. Let me help you by saying that you don't have to quit your abberrant behavior permanently, just each time you get the urge.
Practice right now. See if you can abstain from responding to this current comment from mine. It's not as hard as it seems. Just don't hit "Post Message".
It gets easier with time, Wolf, trust me.
-Mike Foulks
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Replying to:
OK Mr, Foulks, you have proven beyond any doubt that you are a prime candidate for hospitalization in a locked ward -- for you own good!
These postings – obvious to even a non medical professional -- are the output of a person suffering from an OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDER.
This is very real debilitative and destructive illness, not just wise remarks or flagrantly abusive commentary.
These postings do not further the cause or provide insight to any of the issues at hand, other than the issue of “one of our own” in deep distress.
When you allow this kind of extremely excessive behavior, you no longer have a "DISCUSSION FORUM, but rather a VOMITORIUM.
We, on this forum sadly can not help this poor demented, tortured soul. I would hope that common sense and decency prevail – must prevail.
It is very saddening for me, personally to see this. I have seen mental illness of this type destroy a very close and true friend.
And I have seen proud and brave men – decorated soldiers who withstood and survived the worst horrors of war one can live through -- succumb to the devils and demons in their heads.
I am hereby abstaining from any further comments regarding Mr. Foulks and his alleged organization.
Mike, I am truly sorry. Please get help.
--Wolfgang J. Weiss—
