Allen
"Human nature: The need for acceptance. So-called initiation rights that subject you to obstacles to show ones allegiance. Greeks thru pledging, churches thru christening/baptism/confirmation, sports thru physical and overt hazing as well as gangs. This type of behavior permeates our society. All are variations of the same theme."





Min. H
God certainly has the right to choose what hoops (initiation rites) man must jump through, not denominations. This is where all man-made rules are separated from The Bible. So they are not variations of the same theme.




Allen
"If you want to be a part of this group, you must jump thru these hoops." "You must believe as we believe, do as we do or your life is nothing" or from a religious position; "Either believe in our doctrines, or you go to Hell, Tatarus, Purgatory...etc." Most, if not all of these hoops have absolutely nothing to do with the organizations founding principles nor founder(s). This is the root of the problem. People rely on others interpretations and many times those interpretations are incorrect or skewed based upon personal preferences and experiences.





Min. H
The earliest EVIDENCE of VIOLENT hazing in BGLO's is 1914. The earliest evidence of hazing among BGLO's is 1906. That's right! perpetrated by the founders. So let's not get this twisted here. Hazing from the very FOUNDING was an ACCEPTABLE PRACTICE to which the founders may have merely given ONLY LIP SERVICE to. Due to no internet, national news services, a death due to pledging would make local news, bury the dead, and life goes on.




Allen
Both pledging and hazing are illegal in the D9 and when exposed, should be dealt with in a court of law. The church[pl] too has it's issues. But for some, biting the hand that feeds them is a difficult endeavor especially when that hand provides a title, a place to worship and the admiration/affection of people who listen to that person's message.





Min. H
Well you are talking to the right person about the title issue. But I am the wrong one when it comes to not voicing my opinion to the top man.




Allen
I saw take care of your own house before taking care of others. If your life is perfect, then continue with your condemnation of others. However, if it isn't, work on yourself first.

Then, and only then can you lead by example.





Min. H
Leading by example does not require perfection Allen, and in this case it makes you double-tongued. You are doing exactly what you believe I shouldn't be, yet you are not perfect either. So how do you expect to lead?

I actually agree with some of your sentiments about the church, which is why I never made my ministry about title, money, admiration, etc.

God Bless You and I wouldn't mind having a conversation with you!

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