THIS COMES FROM MY BLOG- CHURCHIANITY IS EXPENSIVE

WALKINGOUTTHEDOOR SAID:
"Min. Hatchett:

While I do not agree with everything that you have said (because the LORD said to bring your gift to the temple and he did say 1/10), while I do understand that you are going on strictly what the New Testament says, I am a believer in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand God’s prophecy for His people and the NEW TESTAMENT, God’s plan revealed. And the LORD never said anything about NOT giving/tithing which to me are intermingled. I will GIVE cheerfully back to GOD a portion of what HE has given me because GOD is the owner of all that I have and all that I am.

A great deal of what has been posted on this blog I do recognize and have observed first hand. Preaching that folks will be “cursed with a curse” or “cursing those people that do not follow the vision” is un-Biblical, makes my spirit jump as it should make any Bible believing Christian. Enticing/encouraging/compelling/begging/bullying people to “come on and bless this man of God with an offering” or “bless this woman of God with a seed offereing” and doing so in such a bold and shameless manner when you are supposed to be closing out the worship service by blessing God’s people with a benediction for “the LORD bless you and keep you, now and forever, AMEN”. You don’t beg and bully people for money in these tough economic times. Especially when folks are not only losing their jobs, but losing their homes. This is not of God, what this is a demonstration of the wants of the flesh (money) and unbelievable display of poor taste and poor judgement (love of money and worldly pleasure). And to think to have a supposed woman of God singing a song in a vieled threat of “you better be careful of what you say about me”. It is sad, sad, sad.

I don’t recognize this man or this woman as the humble people they once were. The Carmichaels have lost themselves. Puffed up, prideful, materialistic, hard hearted. I pray for the Carmichaels because I will not curse them, their family or ANYONE else with a curse, THAT is un-Godly behavior and a demonstration of darkness no matter how you slice it and how it is served up. They need prayer and a lot of it.

EBC has a lot of good men and women who have swallowed the “kool-aid” and do not understand they are being preached straight into hell.

I have attached the NLT of 2 Corinthians 9 and the WHOLE thing so that people can not pick and choose what they want to believe what the LORD said about GIVING. I pray God’s peace upon all of you.
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2 Corinthians 9
The Collection for Christians in Jerusalem
1 I really don’t need to write to you about this ministry of giving for the believers in Jerusalem.
2 For I know how eager you are to help, and I have been boasting to the churches in Macedonia that you in Greece were ready to send an offering a year ago. In fact, it was your enthusiasm that stirred up many of the Macedonian believers to begin giving.

3 But I am sending these brothers to be sure you really are ready, as I have been telling them, and that your money is all collected. I don’t want to be wrong in my boasting about you.

4 We would be embarrassed—not to mention your own embarrassment—if some Macedonian believers came with me and found that you weren’t ready after all I had told them!

5 So I thought I should send these brothers ahead of me to make sure the gift you promised is ready. But I want it to be a willing gift, not one given grudgingly.

6 Remember this—a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop.
7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”
8 And God will generously provide all you need. Then you will always have everything you need and plenty left over to share with others.

9 As the Scriptures say, “They share freely and give generously to the poor. Their good deeds will be emembered forever.”

10 For God is the one who provides seed for the farmer and then bread to eat. In the same way, he will provide and increase your resources and then produce a great harvest of generosity in you.

11 Yes, you will be enriched in every way so that you can always be generous. And when we take your gifts to those who need them, they will thank God.

12 So two good things will result from this ministry of giving—the needs of the believers in Jerusalem will be met, and they will joyfully express their thanks to God.

13 As a result of your ministry, they will give glory to God. For your generosity to them and to all believers will prove that you are obedient to the Good News of Christ.

14 And they will pray for you with deep affection because of the overflowing grace God has given to you.

15 Thank God for this gift too wonderful for words!

WOTD said:
"'. . . . and adding on to my prior comment, if you pay special note to verses 9 - 15. What is EBC under Carmichael doing for those that are poor, downtrodden and broken? Does the leadership at EBC fail to see that by DOING the WORD of GOD instead of simply collecting will bring more blessing upon this great church and edify the Body of Christ? If such was the case, there would be no need for this blog.'"


Min. H (admin) stated:


walkingoutthedoor
“While I do not agree with everything that you have said (because the LORD said to bring your gift to the temple and he did say 1/10), while I do understand that you are going on strictly what the New Testament says, I am a believer in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand God’s prophecy for His people and the NEW TESTAMENT, God’s plan revealed. And the LORD never said anything about NOT giving/tithing which to me are intermingled. I will GIVE cheerfully back to GOD a portion of what HE has given me because GOD is the owner of all that I have and all that I am.”


Min. H
I have no problem with the Old Testament. There are things that we should continue to follow in the Old Testament, and that’s at the least, any command that Jesus and the Apostles brought over. Tithing has been done away with, but not giving, which was actually carried over. The Jewish Dietary Laws were abolished in the New Testament. The Lord did speak on the issue of tithing under the Law. The Bible does speak of a cancellation of the ordinances in Colossians 2:14,

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

and Ephesians 2:15

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Tithing was an ordinance, Numbers 18

So although giving/tithing is seen together in the Old Testament, they are not the same.



walking out the door said:
"Min. Hatchett:

Lifitng one certain passage of scripture is a pet peeve of mine, not to mention dangerous and why some people of the Carmichael’s ilk take The Word of God and twist it to sound like something they think others want/need to hear or fall victim to their scheme. Wolves in sheep’s clothing if you will.

I am of the school of know the Word, the whole Word so as not be be a victim of the wiles of the devil that will lead you to a burning hell. Lift the entire passage so that the unlearned can read the whole passage for themselves to gain understanding and to not lead a person who is a non-believer or does not understand the Word into hell and that is charged to my account.

Respectfully, I cannot see how you can draw this conclusion that Col 2:14 is a statement against tithing or giving. Sounds like you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this. I believe that the Lord wants a man to give (tithe) as he is able.

Giving/tithing is a profession of faith and trust in GOD and a highly personal matter on the vertical level.

Colossians 2 (New Living Translation)

Colossians 2
1 I want you to know how much I have agonized for you and for the church at Laodicea, and for many other believers who have never met me personally.
2 I want them to be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have complete confidence that they understand God’s mysterious plan, which is Christ himself.
3 In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I am telling you this so no one will deceive you with well-crafted arguments.
5 For though I am far away from you, my heart is with you. And I rejoice that you are living as you should and that your faith in Christ is strong.

Freedom from Rules and New Life in Christ
6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him.
7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.
8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.
10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.
12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.
15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross.
16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.
17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,
19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it.
20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as,
21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”?
22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them.
23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires."



Min. H said:
"What school did you go to? Do you think that quoting II Corinthians 9 is any better than what I quoted. Your scripture actually gives more credence that GIVING is the New Testament way for giving MONEY.

You cannot see it because you do not want to read the whole of Deuteronomy. Anyway, if you want the full deal, since you believe I am just peace-mealing, go to my discussion forum at http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=460887521&frmid=66&msgid=937655&cmd=show

I could easily say the same about how you try to with no sound background try to link tithing with giving. Tithing under the Law was FOOD only. Abraham tithed on the SPOILS of WAR. We do not know if Jacob ever tithed, then came the Law and the ordinance of tithing.

There is no such thing as tithing for the NT Christian. There is no Levitical Priesthood. If you truly love the Old Testament, I implore you read it carefully concerning tithes. Now, I am going to take these posts out and put them over to the discussion forum.

Bottom Line- You cannot link show ANY COMMAND for tithing in the New Testament. There are no limits on giving.



To walkingoutthedoor:

“'That which has been brought over from the OT into the new is clearly repeated after Calvary to the church in terms of grace and faith. That is why the Sabbath, food laws, circumcision and multiple wives are clearly discussed yet tithing is not. Second, the only time Jesus mentioned tithing was to criticize tithe-payers in the context of the law. It would have been impossible to Jesus to command his Gentile disciples to tithe.'” http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id142.html

The last sentence is key, for it was the many requirements placed upon the Jews that were being abolished for the sake of the Gentiles."

I am amazed at all the excuses Pastors will make to mention, ask, promote, mandate, require, force, etc. their MEMBERS to TITHE. I had this experience not too long ago and here was an excuse I heard in one sitting.

1.) 10% is a good benchmark or starting place for Christians to give freely. First of all, not all Jews did or were required to tithe. Non-Tithing occupations did not produce tithable commodities. A carpenter doesn't produce apples and sheep.

2.) God will test a person's heart based on their giving. Uh! Ask Peter, Paul, etc. that question. He will judge based on how you care for your family (i.e. you are worse than an infidel).

3.) It takes money to run a ministry. I agree, so instead of taking a youth group of 100 kids to the mountains for a retreat, buy a good DVD on social darwinism, and let kids see what is happening in their world. By the way, the parents may want/need to come. Afterwards, ask for a FREE-WILL offering. I guarantee it will pay for the DVD and the cost of the place big enough to hold 300 people.

For a thorough exegetical, hermeneutical, etc. approach to tithing, go to,
www.tithing-russkelly.com

I am convinced in my heart that tithing should not be taught, mentioned, or suggested it has anything to do with GIVING money in or to the church. I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM TEACHING FROM THE PROPER BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE, ESPECIALLY THE ONE THAT SAYS $$$$TITHING$$$$ IS OVER, SAID, AND DONE WITH FOR CHRISTIANS.

Dave Ramsey has a program called Financial Peace University. In his message to the church, he promotes the concept of tithing. Please read his explanation, and ask yourself these questions.
1.) What is missing from his explanation?
2.) Why give advice on something, but not explain it thoroughly. Rather than do the right thing, he wants to give you cliches about the 10% deal. Here's a couple of PSYCHOLOGICALLY LACED POISION from his site,

"So why does He ask us to give 10% to Him? Tithing was created for our benefit. It is to teach us how to keep God first in our lives and how to be unselfish people."

Min. H
God commanded the Jews who farmed and raised animals to tithe.


"The tithe, which is a scriptural mandate, was not instituted for God's benefit because He already has all the money He needs. He does not need our money."

He calls it a scriptural mandate, but does not explain how it is so. When did God ever NEED MONEY? These are the kind of statements being made to convince people that tithing is legitimate church doctrine.


http://www.daveramsey.com/article/daves-advice-on-tithing-and-giving/lifeandmoney_church/

Now see, before I could even finish my post, I found something else more diabolical.

A person asked Dave this question,

"On Top Of Tithing
Dave tells Annie the difference between an offering and tithing, and why she should do both as a Christian.

QUESTION: Annie asks if it’s all right to give to other organizations besides churches. Dave talks about the distinction between giving and tithing, and why she should do plenty of both.

ANSWER: Certainly you should. You need to give to a lot of things. As a Christian, we’re called to tithe, which means a tenth of your income to your local church, before you do anything else. Anything after that is considered an offering, and my wife and I do those over and above our tithe. You should find things near and dear to your heart and support them."

http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?event=askdave/&intContentItemId=11163&ictid=church3

Please listen to the audio. Notice his emphasis on the word Tiiiithe.

What's the problem here? Where does he get the information that one should give a tithe your local church (i.e. the one you belong to). He gets in from the notoriously and deceptively use of Malachi 3:8-12. Bring tithes into the storehouse.... STOREHOUSE IS NOT YOUR LOCAL CHURCH.

By the way, tithes were given to LEVITES. They don't exist anymore........... The LEVITES then GAVE TITHES TO THE AARONIC PRIESTS......... They don't exist anymore either.

NOWHERE does it say to tithe your income in the Bible. Yet, he calls tithing a biblical mandate.

So what should a Christian do if they are struggling to get a head in life and really make it out here. To catch God's attention I know they say that you have to sacrifice in life to get some where with God. I just don't understand how Blesses come when you got to go through so much struggle and hardache.



What should a Christian do if they are believing for better in their lives.

Finacial blessings are not the basis, nor the crown of God's approval. Sacrificial as well as giving freely are found in the bible. Give with your heart and out of love. It's your heart, not the gift itself that draws God's attention. Don't get caught up in a preacher's cliche, read God's Word for yourself, and you will see God's "cliches" on giving. Just because we are saved, does not mean we are granted special financial right to prosper. There are many Christians all over this world that live in abject poverty, BUT THEY ARE STILL BORN AGAIN. The blessings come through heartache and struggle when your heart is toward Jesus. When you store up belssings in heaven where moth, nor rust destroy. These are the scriptures that pastors don;t want to tell you about, THE REAL BLESSINGS.

Matthew 6:3-4
But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
GIVE FROM YOUR HEART PRIVATELY


Mark 12:41-44
And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”
SACRIFIAL GIVING


2 Corinthians 9:6-8
Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed.
The true essence of giving


Philippians 4:15-17
And you yourselves also know, Philippians, that at the first preaching of the gospel, after I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you alone; for even in Thessalonica you send a gift more than once for my needs. Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account.


James 2:15-16
If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
You are giving nothing.


Call me Hope, if you need further explanation. 919/278-8911 after 6:00 p.m.

I just came from a Panel Discussion on Greek Life and Christianity. I can say this one thing, which I often say to myself. I am glad God humbled me, pulled me out of church for about a year, and that I gladly accepted His Word, not the word of others.

I say that to say this; that in the church, mostly black oriented churches, that we have not come to a point where we do not always feel the NEED to have someone in authority over us. I did not bring up the subject of tithing during the discussion, but a door was open to discuss it afterwards. Both of the other preachers had hemmed and hawed about being careful with doctrine and interpretaion. So some ques had some questions about their frat. They knew about the burial ceremony in their ritual, but overlooked the fact that it states their dead brethren are at peace with God WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST. They asked me a question about why am I putting their stuff out their like that. I explained that their information is not really secret, but just used to confirm identity. I then stated, shouldn't anything bad be exposed when it affects the body of Christ. "YES"! Let's take tithing for example.................. Uh Oh! The 2 preachers there were all ears. As soon as I stated that tithing was not a part of the New Covenant, the young que spouted Malachi 3 and robbing God. The Pastor used the OLD, "are we supposed to throw the O.T. stuff away". He then made 2 other statements, which of neither could be supported by scripture. The one I remember was he stated that the Levitical Priesthood is still alive through the current leadership model of the New Testament. When I showed him how the model actually existed, he had nothing to say. The young man who brought up Malachi 3, I simply stated, who is God addressing in Malchi 1, 2, and 3? I don't know! The priests!!!!! Then with all I have learned, thank God, I dealt the killer blow. So, just as it was then it is today, the priests are the robbers.

The other preacher who was there didn't say anything either. His pastor preaches tithing with a pimpness.